Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream • Hacker News Board

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#81

Post by waterhouse » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 1:15 PM UTC

cgarrigue wrote: post #27

soufron wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stayed and worked as a Lawyer in Japan for a few years, and I wouldn't say it makes a difference whether you want to integrate or not. I would even tend to think that not integrating can result in being better accepted. Just be the French or the US guy they like to hang out with, the one who knows to do stuff they don't know, and everything will be fine. Try to become a japanese, and you'll end up being crushed by…

Luckily the work culture is slowly changing, at least regarding the matter of OT: following the suicide of a new recruit of Dentsu that was ruled to be a death by overwork, several companies started to ask their employees to refrain from doing OT. However, as an engineer, it is sometimes quite frustrating to work with colleagues who do not want to try anything by themselves, because they want to be taught everything.…

> this limits innovation, because nobody wants to do something new.

Curious. The stuff that I've read about Toyota says they have "continuous improvement" as a core principle[1]. Does that just not carry over into the way they do software, or is Toyota an anomaly among Japanese companies, or what?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota#Company_strategy

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#82

Post by dunpeal » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 1:19 PM UTC

xaranke wrote: post #18

Are there really a lot of these people? Don't get me wrong, Japan is truly a wonderful place to visit but living there seems like playing life on "hard mode" as compared to other countries: new language and culture, never truly becoming "one of them", and relatively poor working conditions. Unless you have existing ties to the place, it seems hard to believe that people will move in droves; although I can understand…

I'm guessing not a lot.

Japan is notorious for very formal work culture, very long "working" hours (really, "working" just means "staying in the office" - it's customary not to leave the office before your boss does, but perfectly acceptable to spend the waiting time playing solitaire).

It's one of these countries where "an engineer is just an engineer" and management, even if it's middle management, is god.

They do need tech workers, which is probably why this propaganda piece got published. But I doubt they're getting many applicants, except maybe from 3rd-world countries as shown in the article.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#83

Post by Regardsyjc » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

sofon wrote: post #79

jimmywanger wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cited wikipedia and a UN observer. What else do you want as data? Survey data? Who would answer a survey asking if you were racist, specifically if you're racist towards certain ethnic groups? What are you realistically asking for that will change your mind?

Yes, survey data. And to be clear, the world value survey has asked questions covering racism. In particular: "Would you accept someone of a different race as a neighbour?" and "How often do you see racist behaviour in your neighbourhood?" You could also look at mobility of foreign workers of as opposed to native workers of a similar background. Unfortunately the world value survey results don't really support your c…

I think xenophobia is a great marker for racism.

Here's a wiki article for racism and xenophobia in South Korea: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_South_Korea

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#84

Post by Regardsyjc » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 1:25 PM UTC

dbjh wrote: post #47

lifthrasiir wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be disingenuous but not entirely false. The integration you describe is not mandatory to be accepted as a member of many societies, and the seeming inability to integrate was historically used as a legitimate reason to discriminate them even after considerable efforts. There are so many ongoing discriminations specific to Japan [1], including aforementioned pre-1945 Korean immigrants (and by extension their…

I wasn't swapping anything. I was arguing against the claim that Koreans are being oppressed. They're not. In an attempt by the Japanese government to make amends they have been given privileges that other foreigners don't enjoy. Some Japanese see that as unfair, because why would they enjoy special privileges if they have not been subject to unfair treatment as their ancestors were? That's where the irritation comes…

“After a decade-long battle, the Supreme Court ruled recently that Chung, the daughter of a Japanese woman and a South Korean man, who was born in Japan and has lived all her life here, could not take the test to become a supervisor at a public health center because she was a foreigner."

Japan-born Koreans live in limbo https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/news/japanborn-koreans-li...

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#85

Post by laurieg » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 1:36 PM UTC

devilsbabe wrote: post #48

lmiller1990 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also not the parent but I have been in Japan for three years now (but leaving to move to my home country soon). I'll share my experience. I had basically no truly "negative" experiences based on my race. I am fluent (understand 95% - 98% of what's going on, including complex convos about tech stacks and so on (I work in software engineering). Sometimes people speak (usually not very good) English to me, assuming I do…

I've heard that salaries are on average much lower but companies offering competitive wages do exist. Like you said, you will have an easier time fitting in and earn more if you work for an international company rather than a Japanese one. I'm a software engineer in an American tech company's Tokyo office with 1 yoe and have around ¥13M total comp.

Any advice on finding a position like this? 13M JPY is a large salary for Japan.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#86

Post by Raphmedia » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 1:40 PM UTC

xaranke wrote: post #18

Are there really a lot of these people? Don't get me wrong, Japan is truly a wonderful place to visit but living there seems like playing life on "hard mode" as compared to other countries: new language and culture, never truly becoming "one of them", and relatively poor working conditions. Unless you have existing ties to the place, it seems hard to believe that people will move in droves; although I can understand…

> Unless you have existing ties to the place, it seems hard to believe that people will move in droves; although I can understand a few people moving.

The opposite is also true. You can grow so bored of western culture that Japan become interesting with its different way of life. It is however quite a bit "western" in some ways (compared to China, some of the middle east, etc.) so moving there can sound like a challenge without being scary.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#87

Post by seanmcdirmid » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 1:42 PM UTC

carlmr wrote: post #49

larrysalibra wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure this is just a Japan phenomenon - seems like more of a "American tech workers are realizing there's a lot of interesting places to live outside of the USA and it's easier than ever"-phenomenon. I made the move to China and then Hong Kong about 11 years ago and don't regret it either. Anecdotally seeing increasing numbers of "high tech" people moving to Hong Kong / China too. 10 years ago it was mostly people…

Do you have any tips on how to get into China?

I got in just by pinging someone and asking for a job, leading to a 9 year stint at MS China. If you have talent/experience, you should be able to find something in China, trying foreign companies (google, Microsoft, IBM, SAP) is an effective strategy for getting your foot in the door, Chinese companies are less approachable.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#88

Post by philipov » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 1:42 PM UTC

waterhouse wrote: post #81

cgarrigue wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luckily the work culture is slowly changing, at least regarding the matter of OT: following the suicide of a new recruit of Dentsu that was ruled to be a death by overwork, several companies started to ask their employees to refrain from doing OT. However, as an engineer, it is sometimes quite frustrating to work with colleagues who do not want to try anything by themselves, because they want to be taught everything.…

> this limits innovation, because nobody wants to do something new. Curious. The stuff that I've read about Toyota says they have "continuous improvement" as a core principle[1]. Does that just not carry over into the way they do software, or is Toyota an anomaly among Japanese companies, or what? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota#Company_strategy

That sounds like top-down improvement such as 'agile' development, not bottom-up improvement like hacker culture. That said, I'm sure there are plenty of Japanese who are curious and self-motivated, and there are plenty of non-Japanese who don't want to put in any individual effort. It's just that the cultural narrative told by each society highlights different things.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#89

Post by seanmcdirmid » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 1:46 PM UTC

devilsbabe wrote: post #48

lmiller1990 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also not the parent but I have been in Japan for three years now (but leaving to move to my home country soon). I'll share my experience. I had basically no truly "negative" experiences based on my race. I am fluent (understand 95% - 98% of what's going on, including complex convos about tech stacks and so on (I work in software engineering). Sometimes people speak (usually not very good) English to me, assuming I do…

I've heard that salaries are on average much lower but companies offering competitive wages do exist. Like you said, you will have an easier time fitting in and earn more if you work for an international company rather than a Japanese one. I'm a software engineer in an American tech company's Tokyo office with 1 yoe and have around ¥13M total comp.

Google Japan is supposed to pay decent as well.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#90

Post by hocuspocus » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 1:48 PM UTC

anjc wrote: post #66

Any non-Japanese person who wants to work there should think long and hard, and give it a trial first. Poor pay, strong work culture, stifling weather and crazy weather events for much of the year...it's no paradise. You'll frequently see things happen which are downright illegal in the Western world. For example, being explicitly denied service because you're not Japanese. You might not see these things as a tourist…

While it's true that salaries are low on average, a tech worker relocating from overseas wouldn't (and shouldn't) settle for an average offer. Same goes for work culture.