Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#211

Post by MBCook » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:52 PM UTC

enitihas wrote: post #56

scarface74 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon does it all of the time. You pay for content by going on Amazon.com and you view the content via an app.

This may work for Amazon only because their own brand is also directly known to the user, and a lot of users would also be visitors of their website. But for a newcomer trying to sell digital goods via an app, good luck

They may have some sort of ‘free pass’ due to their size/influence. It’s eqsy to say that Amazon’s content is meant for Kindles too, and just happens to work for the iPhone.

But if you have an iOS only app? Good luck arguing your way out of the rule.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#212

Post by gg3 » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:53 PM UTC

cptaj wrote: post #135

And they should. We are fast approaching a world where all markets are walled-in by a few international companies. I've had clients of mine go under because Amazon decided to close their accounts and they depend on the platform to sell their wares. Imagine how hard it is to sell stuff online if you're barred from ebay and amazon... and there is no legal recourse to appeal those bans. Same goes for app stores, what ha…

Can we discuss alternative to these big platforms? This is the only long term solution to the problem. Decentralization is need of the hour. Why isn't etherium based solutions gaining traction even after repeated backlash by these big platforms on multiple fronts.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#213

Post by pcmaffey » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:54 PM UTC

cptaj wrote: post #135

And they should. We are fast approaching a world where all markets are walled-in by a few international companies. I've had clients of mine go under because Amazon decided to close their accounts and they depend on the platform to sell their wares. Imagine how hard it is to sell stuff online if you're barred from ebay and amazon... and there is no legal recourse to appeal those bans. Same goes for app stores, what ha…

We engineers could also develop more intelligent and robust rating systems.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#214

Post by MBCook » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:54 PM UTC

skunkworker wrote: post #161

With Apple shuttering their affiliate program for iOS I hope this means the fee will drop to 15% or even 10%. Otherwise I can't see them dropping that affiliate program unless a change was in the future that could affect it.

Ha. As an Apple fan, I can’t see them doing that. They wanted the money to make their services revenue look better.

I imagine it wasn’t close to 10-15% of purchase on average anyway. And I’m guessing it didn’t apply to IAP, where the real money is.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#215

Post by halo » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:56 PM UTC

ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #10

Doesn't Valve take 30% from games on Steam? But they're complaining Apple taking 30% is too much? I also don't really think the Apple/Google fee is that unreasonable. Considering the resources, tools, marketplaces, tutorials, payment processing, all the other All dev stuff they provide in general. Yes if your app goes big, they make a lot of money. But for every big app there's something like 9 that fail completely (…

Many major PC games publishers and developers have chosen either to not to use Steam or have reduced their support including EA, Epic, Microsoft (including Mojang), Riot, Activision Blizzard and Bethesda.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#216

Post by opportune » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:56 PM UTC

walterbell wrote: post #205

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the big problems with forming a gig worker union is the same problem with gig work in general; you're disconnected with your coworkers and other firm participants. Uber can press a button in response to a strike and send out a push notification to potential scabs offering a bribe to cross the digital picket line. The strikers both don't know and can't efficiently tell who scabs are, and as such can't put press…

Some Uber drivers also use the Lyft app. Would they use a “DriveTogether” app for labor organizing? Is digital labor organizing more or less work than old-school organizing of workers in factories across a large geographic region? Edit: looks like this is now legally permitted, https://tcf.org/content/report/virtual-labor-organizing/ ”Due to a little-known, but far-reaching change made by the NLRB last year, virtual…

One major barrier is that you don’t have to meet any of your coworkers unless you explicitly seek them out, and your employer certainly isn’t going to help you. So yes I would say that labor organizing across a gig platform is considerably harder than for factories across geographic regions. The social fabric is a lot harder to construct

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#217

Post by dkonofalski » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:56 PM UTC

cgriswald wrote: post #45

ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #10

Doesn't Valve take 30% from games on Steam? But they're complaining Apple taking 30% is too much? I also don't really think the Apple/Google fee is that unreasonable. Considering the resources, tools, marketplaces, tutorials, payment processing, all the other All dev stuff they provide in general. Yes if your app goes big, they make a lot of money. But for every big app there's something like 9 that fail completely (…

Steam does not sell me a locked down hardware platform preventing me from buying the software directly from the publisher. Nor does Steam force me to buy DLC through Steam, I am free to buy the DLC directly from the publisher. Steam gets a cut of what I buy from Steam and I am not locked into buying from Steam in order to make my PC useful. Apple sells me a locked down hardware platform that requires me to go through…

That's not really a fair comparison since Apple has to curate the App Store and is 100% responsible for the service as well. It's not like you're buying an iPhone or iPad without knowing that all your apps come from the App Store and that's part of the value - unlike Android, you know exactly where the app is coming from, what it is and isn't allowed to do, and have an expectation that the app has been reasonably reviewed so it's not a danger to you or the device.

Steam is almost exactly the same way because it's not like you can take your Steam purchase and use it without Steam. Yes, you can buy DLC and other add-ons directly from the publisher if you wanted to but that's moreso because of how the publishers have created their products rather than how Steam works as a platform.

As for your Amazon example, Apple does absolutely add value there. They manage and keep track of all your purchases and payments so that there's a single, unified method for both paying and resolving issues. Additionally, since Apple functions as the payment processor, you're also paying for the security functionality. The only reason you have to make a purchase from the Amazon website is because Amazon wants to control the purchasing and doesn't want to pay Apple for their payment processing.

It's just a difference of whether you prefer the consistency of the experience that Apple prefers at the expense of other companies or whether you prefer to deal with several different experiences that could potentially open everything up for fraud and problems. People who aren't as tech savvy or who don't want to have to wade through a bunch of BS just to make a purchase may prefer Apple's method. Others may prefer digging through and doing all that in order to have a broader pool to choose from.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#218

Post by Bekwnn » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

bangonkeyboard wrote: post #33

"App Store fees got you down? Meanwhile at Epic, they lowered their take on the Unreal Marketplace from 30% to 12% and retroactively paid back years of fees. "Epic said this is due to the success of Fortnite. If only Apple and Google had successful products to rely on for income." — https://twitter.com/agilethumbs/status/1029804861477412865

Additionally, Unreal Engine 4 charges only 5% gross on revenue exceeding 3,000 USD per quarter. Epic's CEO tweeted about these markets taking 30% where other transaction facilitators only take 2-5%.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/89831654549...

It feels like in tech there are a ton of leech-like companies attempting to leverage their way into middleman positions and then rest on their laurels while dictating terms to the supply side as they hold the customer side hostage. I'm not a fan of it, and I'm glad that in the past few years there seems to be a growing awareness of it.

Tim Sweeney and Epic have been hugely supportive to other developers and I wish other companies tried to offer as much value and support to the developers that their business rests upon.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#219

Post by OSTN » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #10

Doesn't Valve take 30% from games on Steam? But they're complaining Apple taking 30% is too much? I also don't really think the Apple/Google fee is that unreasonable. Considering the resources, tools, marketplaces, tutorials, payment processing, all the other All dev stuff they provide in general. Yes if your app goes big, they make a lot of money. But for every big app there's something like 9 that fail completely (…

>Doesn't Valve take 30% from games on Steam? But they're complaining Apple taking 30% is too much?

Nobody is locked to valve on PC. Large game publishers have their own PC stores precisely to avoid getting ripped off by Valve. EA has Origin, Ubisoft has Uplay, Blizzard/Activision has Battle.net. MS has the Microsoft Store. There are many little indie stores with their own handling of profits, like itch.io :

>itch.io costs nothing to use. You are free to create pages and upload your content without ever having to pay anything. Advertisements will never be placed on any of your pages.

>You get to decide how much you want to support itch.io by choosing what percentage of your sales should go towards our operational costs and continued development of the platform. We call that open revenue sharing.

Subscription MMORPGs also all have their own payment schemes and external launchers that bypass Valve's little greedy hands.

Being locked to a single app store on any platform is a mistake. PCs are great because we don't suffer this, for now. Until MS decides to make Windows S the default and lock people from freely switching to a normal version of Windows.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#220

Post by dkonofalski » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

cgriswald wrote: post #196

UncleMeat wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And mobile stores offer search, promotion, distribution, and analytics.

In the absence of any alternative methods of developers getting their apps into users hands, it is difficult to say whether "search, promotion, distribution, and analytics" offered by Apple are really valued at what Apple is charging for them. It is also difficult to separate these things from things Apple is doing for its own sake, since they increase sales which benefits Apple directly. I strongly suspect that, giv…

You're completely ignoring the hit to both the brand and experience that something like that would cause. There's a big reason why iOS users tend to spend more money on the platform than Android users do on the Google platform and a huge part of that is the trust built by Apple with their users.

You can go into the Google Play store (which most people would think was the "official" and "safe" method of getting apps) and still get malware and/or a virus on your Android phone. Now imagine that Google offered both an official Play store and an alternative open Play store. Which do you think the majority of users would use and have a positive opinion of?