Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#201

Post by opportune » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #178

worldsayshi wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In part I think it's important to think about how to make and keep a healthy culture of labour unions. There needs to be counter balance to corporate power. Especially in blue collar sectors. I guess gig unions could be a thing? Can we build apps for worker coordination? What if there was a way for all Uber drivers to coordinate global strikes? We should be open for regulation that protect the rights of workers to un…

One of the big problems with forming a gig worker union is the same problem with gig work in general; you're disconnected with your coworkers and other firm participants. Uber can press a button in response to a strike and send out a push notification to potential scabs offering a bribe to cross the digital picket line. The strikers both don't know and can't efficiently tell who scabs are, and as such can't put press…

Some would say this is the killer-app of gig platforms - the picket lines and scabs are almost invisible, and workers are completely disconnected from each other unless they seek each other out. Makes organization and striking very hard

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#202

Post by baxtr » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

cgriswald wrote: post #45

ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #10

Doesn't Valve take 30% from games on Steam? But they're complaining Apple taking 30% is too much? I also don't really think the Apple/Google fee is that unreasonable. Considering the resources, tools, marketplaces, tutorials, payment processing, all the other All dev stuff they provide in general. Yes if your app goes big, they make a lot of money. But for every big app there's something like 9 that fail completely (…

Steam does not sell me a locked down hardware platform preventing me from buying the software directly from the publisher. Nor does Steam force me to buy DLC through Steam, I am free to buy the DLC directly from the publisher. Steam gets a cut of what I buy from Steam and I am not locked into buying from Steam in order to make my PC useful. Apple sells me a locked down hardware platform that requires me to go through…

I don’t think Apple sells you anything. You buy stuff from them. You are free as a bird to buy any other products you desire

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#203

Post by coldtea » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

jeff_carr wrote: post #180

cptaj wrote: post #135

And they should. We are fast approaching a world where all markets are walled-in by a few international companies. I've had clients of mine go under because Amazon decided to close their accounts and they depend on the platform to sell their wares. Imagine how hard it is to sell stuff online if you're barred from ebay and amazon... and there is no legal recourse to appeal those bans. Same goes for app stores, what ha…

[flagged]

Well, they should also let us know when China invades tens of countries all around the world (and not its own citizens or immediate neighbors they have some beef with), topples their democratically elected leaders and so on. From 2001 till now, 4 ex-sovereign countries have been bombed and invaded into hellscapes, and it wasn't China doing it. Just some old friendly "whataboutism" (/s) to put things into perspective, I'm tired of the pots of this world calling the kettles black...

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#204

Post by MBCook » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

I think Apple’s fee is more than fair for many developers. Free hosting, they do all sorts of payment compliance/fraud/tax stuff for you.

To a small developer I think it’s a huge boon.

But once you become BIG (Candy Crush, Fortnight, Netflix, Amazon) that advantage no longer applies. Those companies are all capable of doing all the payment stuff on their own.

And when you’re doing Fortnight business that 30% is a TON of money.

I seems like Apple should offer a sliding scale based on transaction volume. Starts at 30% and goes down to a bit above credit card fees (say 5% or 7.5%) once you are taking in enough money.

There are still big benefits to the App Store handling payment, like centralized billing, already having card information entered, their ‘allowance’ features, etc.

That would probably help a lot of the big indie applications too.

I suppose they could let you use your own billing system for a flat fee. Say $5-10 million a year. If your volume is high enough it’s worth it you could opt out. They could use that money to ensure quality/compliance.

Unfortunately services revenue has been the one bright spot in Apple’s numbers recently. And a big cut there wouldn’t look good. So I don’t expect Apple to do anything out of charity.

The only plus is some of these groups are big enough they can push back on Apple and it would do something. Now that Fortnight is on Android, can you imagine the power they’d have over Apple if they said they were leaving the platform over this?

Some BIG properties are going to have to shun iOS and get users mad to make a real change. I have a hard time seeing that happen since iOS is just too profitable.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#205

Post by walterbell » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #178

worldsayshi wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In part I think it's important to think about how to make and keep a healthy culture of labour unions. There needs to be counter balance to corporate power. Especially in blue collar sectors. I guess gig unions could be a thing? Can we build apps for worker coordination? What if there was a way for all Uber drivers to coordinate global strikes? We should be open for regulation that protect the rights of workers to un…

One of the big problems with forming a gig worker union is the same problem with gig work in general; you're disconnected with your coworkers and other firm participants. Uber can press a button in response to a strike and send out a push notification to potential scabs offering a bribe to cross the digital picket line. The strikers both don't know and can't efficiently tell who scabs are, and as such can't put press…

Some Uber drivers also use the Lyft app. Would they use a “DriveTogether” app for labor organizing? Is digital labor organizing more or less work than old-school organizing of workers in factories across a large geographic region?

Edit: looks like this is now legally permitted, https://tcf.org/content/report/virtual-labor-organizing/

”Due to a little-known, but far-reaching change made by the NLRB last year, virtual labor organizing by employees is now sanctioned by law in many situations and could possibly be transformative in the workplace ... NLRB recently reversed years of legal precedent that allowed employers to ban the use of workplace e-mail for organizing or communicating about the terms and conditions of work. Last year, in its decision in Purple Communications, Inc., the NLRB emphatically endorsed the right of employees to use workplace e-mail for such activities. It held that “employee use of email for statutorily protected communications on nonworking time must presumptively be permitted by employers who have chosen to give employees access to their email systems.” The NLRB added that: “Employees’ need to share information and opinions is particularly acute in the context of an initial organizing campaign.”

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#206

Post by dkonofalski » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:48 PM UTC

ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #10

Doesn't Valve take 30% from games on Steam? But they're complaining Apple taking 30% is too much? I also don't really think the Apple/Google fee is that unreasonable. Considering the resources, tools, marketplaces, tutorials, payment processing, all the other All dev stuff they provide in general. Yes if your app goes big, they make a lot of money. But for every big app there's something like 9 that fail completely (…

I agree. There's a lot that people take for granted with these App Stores, especially with Apple's. The alternative is to pass this cost onto the consumer instead and I think that's a terrible idea.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#207

Post by fenwick67 » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:48 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #46

mywittyname wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valve has several big competitors in the PC market. Several hugely successful games are not available on Steam. I'm not sure it's possible to create a hugely successful iPhone app that isn't on the App Store. Apple has a monopoly and is using it to squeeze excessive fees from developers.

Using a monopoly to squeeze excessive fees that happen to be exactly the same as the fees for a competitive market? There seems to be a logic breakdown there.

The critical differences here is that computers don't come with Steam games pre-installed with the Steam Store being the only way to install new ones

Whereas most Android phones come with Google apps and the Play Store as the only ways to get new apps.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#208

Post by MBCook » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:48 PM UTC

pvg wrote: post #101

opencl wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's subscription cut is 15% after the subscription has been active for a year, it's 30% for the first year.

Not for Netflix, who is doing most of the complaining here.

It should apply to anyone doing subscription billing through the App Store.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#209

Post by damon_c » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:50 PM UTC

cptaj wrote: post #135

And they should. We are fast approaching a world where all markets are walled-in by a few international companies. I've had clients of mine go under because Amazon decided to close their accounts and they depend on the platform to sell their wares. Imagine how hard it is to sell stuff online if you're barred from ebay and amazon... and there is no legal recourse to appeal those bans. Same goes for app stores, what ha…

My GF and I recently moved from NYC to Los Angeles and an Uber driver once asked her "Are you from NY?", "Yes, why?", "Because your rating is so low and people from NYC usually have really low ratings."

We checked her rating and it's 4.5 or so. But it's funny, she looks like a deadbeat here because of more discerning/critical NYC Uber drivers who gave her 4 stars 50% of the time.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#210

Post by MBCook » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

ihuman wrote: post #109

adorable wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And so how do you sell iOS apps or in-app content then?

Release a free app that requires a user to log in. In order to access the content in the app, the user has to log into a web browser with that account and pay directly via the developer's website. Amazon Kindle and Netflix kind of do this. With Kindle, you have to buy the books with a separate app instead of a website, and Netflix has the option to buy inside the app as well as outside.

Apple has rules against circumventing their billing system. Netflix gets to do it because the service works if you don’t have any iOS devices.

I’m not sure someone like Fortnight could get away with bypassing it. If they did it would only be due to being a special case due to pull. No normal app could get away with it, you’d get pulled fast.