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Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

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Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#41

Post by akshat_h »

ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #10

Doesn't Valve take 30% from games on Steam? But they're complaining Apple taking 30% is too much? I also don't really think the Apple/Google fee is that unreasonable. Considering the resources, tools, marketplaces, tutorials, payment processing, all the other All dev stuff they provide in general. Yes if your app goes big, they make a lot of money. But for every big app there's something like 9 that fail completely (…

Does Steam take a cut for in game purchases? I think the major issue here is with companies having app stores inside app store. All the companies mentioned i.e Amazon, Steam seem to allow in-app purchases at a scale quite different than normal apps. It does seem weird that if I am purchasing an item through Steam's app store, Steam has to pay Apple.

I mean it would be like Amazon paying Apple a cut, if I buy a TV from amazon. AFAIK, it is only for digital goods that Apple charges, but I am not sure how the demarcation works.

On the flip side, if Apple/Google allow any app to use in-app purchases without a commission, then all apps will use in-app purchases for everything.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#42

Post by kodablah »

ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #10

Doesn't Valve take 30% from games on Steam? But they're complaining Apple taking 30% is too much? I also don't really think the Apple/Google fee is that unreasonable. Considering the resources, tools, marketplaces, tutorials, payment processing, all the other All dev stuff they provide in general. Yes if your app goes big, they make a lot of money. But for every big app there's something like 9 that fail completely (…

> Doesn't Valve take 30% from games on Steam? But they're complaining Apple taking 30% is too much?

They're complaining Apple is taking too much without alternative. If the app store provided 30% worth of value, it would be voluntarily chosen like Steam is. Why derail with such a ridiculous equivalence?

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#43

Post by blihp »

scarface74 wrote: post #6

For perspective.... In traditional retail, the publisher only gets 45% as opposed to 70% for the app stores. https://kotaku.com/5479698/what-your-60-really-buys

That's true for retail but that hasn't been a thing for most developers since the 90's. And traditional retail includes things like physical shelf space in a real store with real boxes etc. Since the late 90's/early 00's developers have been selling and distributing (PC/Mac) software online where the typical processing fees are usually reported as no more than ~10-15%.

The app store narrative has been 'look at how much better developers have it than the old days of retail' when the reality is most of the smaller developers could never realistically sell through the traditional retail channel anyways. (there was a lot more to it than the larger cut involved) The other reality is that mobile devices are locked down in ways that PCs historically have not been (i.e. difficult to impossible for most end users to install software outside of the app store) and the only realistic option they had was to go through the platform owner. (i.e. Apple/Google/Amazon/Microsoft)

I'm all for the app stores getting a cut but the 30% number represents more the fact that the platform owners are gatekeepers rather than any real value being offered.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#44

Post by Pica_soO »

scarface74 wrote: post #6

For perspective.... In traditional retail, the publisher only gets 45% as opposed to 70% for the app stores. https://kotaku.com/5479698/what-your-60-really-buys

In traditional retail- there is honest work involved with selling something.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#45

Post by cgriswald »

ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #10

Doesn't Valve take 30% from games on Steam? But they're complaining Apple taking 30% is too much? I also don't really think the Apple/Google fee is that unreasonable. Considering the resources, tools, marketplaces, tutorials, payment processing, all the other All dev stuff they provide in general. Yes if your app goes big, they make a lot of money. But for every big app there's something like 9 that fail completely (…

Steam does not sell me a locked down hardware platform preventing me from buying the software directly from the publisher. Nor does Steam force me to buy DLC through Steam, I am free to buy the DLC directly from the publisher. Steam gets a cut of what I buy from Steam and I am not locked into buying from Steam in order to make my PC useful.

Apple sells me a locked down hardware platform that requires me to go through them for all software purchases and all data purchases made with that software.

> But just from my single viewpoint, it doesn't "feel" unreasonable.

It seems unreasonable to me that Apple should get a cut of my Amazon Video purchases. Apple adds no value there; they just get in the way and try to take a cut. I already have a relationship with Amazon and when I download a video from Amazon, it costs Apple nothing.

The entire thing where I have to make a purchase through the Amazon website rather than the Amazon or Amazon Video app and then download it with Amazon Video app is just stupid.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#46

Post by colechristensen »

mywittyname wrote: post #28
ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #10

Doesn't Valve take 30% from games on Steam? But they're complaining Apple taking 30% is too much? I also don't really think the Apple/Google fee is that unreasonable. Considering the resources, tools, marketplaces, tutorials, payment processing, all the other All dev stuff they provide in general. Yes if your app goes big, they make a lot of money. But for every big app there's something like 9 that fail completely (…

Valve has several big competitors in the PC market. Several hugely successful games are not available on Steam. I'm not sure it's possible to create a hugely successful iPhone app that isn't on the App Store. Apple has a monopoly and is using it to squeeze excessive fees from developers.

Using a monopoly to squeeze excessive fees that happen to be exactly the same as the fees for a competitive market? There seems to be a logic breakdown there.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#47

Post by WilliamEdward »

bangonkeyboard wrote: post #33

"App Store fees got you down? Meanwhile at Epic, they lowered their take on the Unreal Marketplace from 30% to 12% and retroactively paid back years of fees. "Epic said this is due to the success of Fortnite. If only Apple and Google had successful products to rely on for income." — https://twitter.com/agilethumbs/status/1029804861477412865

I really like that. I think the first thing people should do when making a startup is finding a consistent revenue stream and business model. Most companies are actually more about the model than the idea. Hell, even Nike only makes about 6% of profit on their $100 shoes. They can do this because they have a consistent and reliable business model (aka not advertisement income). It's not even the shoes anymore. it's the idea of the shoes.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#48

Post by notafraudster »

I think the focus on "30%" is a little mis-statement. You can pretty easily argue that 30% is too high, but clearly they aren't going to pass along the 12-15% or whatever it actually costs them (assuming 5-7% for payment, a few more % for server costs and bandwidth, a few more % for customer support and developer support) -- clearly they're going to value their monopoly audience attention at some non-zero number. So what does that bring us to? 20%? 25%?

The real issue isn't the few percentage points the devs would like to claw back, it's with applications that have recurring billing and would prefer not to give a percentage at all. Netflix doesn't want to cut Apple in on subscribers. Neither does Amazon with Kindle. Any percentage based system is going to be unfair to someone: if they take a percentage on upfront purchase cost, Apple/Google will get nothing. If they take a percentage on subsequent revenue or subscription revenue, it'll seem disproportionate on an ongoing basis to the value the companies supply.

Making matters worse, it is not especially feasible to come up with a different rate on a case-per-case basis without grossly distorting the market and magnifying existing first-to-market advantages in an undesireable way.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#49

Post by mywittyname »

scarface74 wrote: post #6

For perspective.... In traditional retail, the publisher only gets 45% as opposed to 70% for the app stores. https://kotaku.com/5479698/what-your-60-really-buys

This makes sense in retail. The operating costs associated with retail are more than twice that of a pure digital store. Digital stores don't need to worry about theft, inventory, logistics, opportunity costs of floor space, bad returns, etc. I bet Apple's entire online operation cost less to run than all of the Walmarts in New Jersey.

Plus, you can do cool things like individualize what's offered to customers in a digital store. While the best Walmart can manage are stores customized a store for the region.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#50

Post by kemitche »

colechristensen wrote: post #46
mywittyname wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valve has several big competitors in the PC market. Several hugely successful games are not available on Steam. I'm not sure it's possible to create a hugely successful iPhone app that isn't on the App Store. Apple has a monopoly and is using it to squeeze excessive fees from developers.

Using a monopoly to squeeze excessive fees that happen to be exactly the same as the fees for a competitive market? There seems to be a logic breakdown there.

A business making an app has one choice for delivering that app to iPhone users. The iPhone owners could choose to switch to Android, but that's not a choice the business can make for the consumer.

The business could choose to launch on Android only, and hope that convinces consumers to switch, but that's about it for options.

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