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Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

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Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#161

Post by astura »

icedchai wrote: post #63
wirrbel wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know about the US but here it would be reason enough for my employer to terminate me right away. This is the default for employments. For work on the side, I need to ask my employer for permission. My employer will then be concerned that all labour protection laws will not be violated, which for example means that my employer must accept that I might not be able to work overtime for them, with a side contract,…

Interesting. Where are you from? In the US, nobody even knows about side jobs unless you tell them.

In the US most companies have some sort of "non-moonlighting" condition(s) as part of their employee agreement.

If they found out you could get in trouble, depending on the situation.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#163

Post by Thiez »

wilsonnb3 wrote: post #91
sytelus wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is effort asymmetry. For in-person interviews, company must spend as much time as candidate is spending in evaluation. If homework thing becomes standard, I'm afraid that will become first line of filtering because it doesn't cost much to company. So you will still get in-person interview and may be even bit of whiteboarding (to make sure your friend didn't took test for you or somehow you cheated out by…

> you can bet sites pop all over that allows you to search problem and frameworks and download the common solutions with a click. Sounds like a lucrative business, especially if you can introduce enough variety into the downloaded code to prevent detection by a system like the anti-plagiarizing systems colleges use.

There are techniques to identify a person based on their writing. Perhaps software could be developed that takes a sample of a persons writing, and then modifies text to match their style. Of course one would have to be careful that the introduced variations are not just in identifiers and whitespace, or plagiarism could still trivially be detected by comparing the compiled binaries (after stripping debug symbols, and assuming a compiler supporting repeatable builds).

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#164

Post by dj-wonk »

mysterypie wrote: post #111

If there really is a developer shortage that we're always hearing about, then why don't more developers say "f. you" and walk away from homework assignments, 5-round interviews, cubicle farms instead of offices, etc. It would be a self-correcting problem -- companies that wanted good candidates would stop doing this shit. The only explanation I can come up with is that the developer shortage doesn't exist. Maybe it's…

This is a complex issue, but one key component is this the relative bargaining powers of the parties [1].

Supply and demand in the job market is only one component of the bargaining power. Social norms and many other factors play in.

The field of Organizational Ecology [2] also can offer some metaphors about what is happening. Both herd behavior and organizational inertia are significant factors that explain how companies interview.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inequality_of_bargaining_power

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizational_ecology

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#165

Post by dj-wonk »

chaddattilio wrote: post #30
daenz wrote: post #11

The title is a little click-baitey, because it suggests full on assault on homework. The actual post is more measured in its criticisms, but basically the idea is: don't use homework as a cop-out for not having a good interview process, and thereby likely wasting everyones time. Personally I like homework, because it allows me to show my strengths (actually writing code that is solid) without being "under the gun" in…

Ya I agree, I was all ready to blast it but then realized it had a couple good pointers in the case that you are gonna offer homework. I do disagree with the premise though. As someone who's worked in the tech field for 15+ years and has been on plenty of interviews, I for one would much rather do a short homework assignment than have to stand in front of a few people and white board shit in real-time. Here are reaso…

Some food for thought...

What if a large group of developers banded together and said "We'll only interview with companies that offer us a range of choices on the interview process, because we want to be able to choose option(s) that suit our strengths. We do this because not only because we want to put our best selves forward but also because this helps nudge companies to explore the space of various interviewing methods, which ultimately makes the companies better off as well because they get better long-term matches."

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#166

Post by dnh44 »

icedchai wrote: post #32
ghaff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Supervisor had candidate sign mutual-NDA, work for hire at $X/hr rate & IP assignment agreement on docusign. This would be a violation of the candidate's employment contract at many companies.

Perhaps, but totally unenforceable... It's a non-issue. Developers are not slaves, and you cannot prevent them from doing outside work while looking for other jobs.

I totally agree, but I also think it's unprofessional behaviour to ask or expect someone to break the terms of an existing contract. Especially at the start of a new business relationship where building trust is really important.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#167

Post by rahimnathwani »

shady-lady wrote: post #80
chaddattilio wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya I agree, I was all ready to blast it but then realized it had a couple good pointers in the case that you are gonna offer homework. I do disagree with the premise though. As someone who's worked in the tech field for 15+ years and has been on plenty of interviews, I for one would much rather do a short homework assignment than have to stand in front of a few people and white board shit in real-time. Here are reaso…

> If you complain about having to spend a couple hours outside the interview on work, maybe you don't really want the job that bad enough Maybe I'm talking to more than one company and don't feel like subjecting myself to this absolute nonsense over & over. Maybe I'm just feeling out the opportunity without having to worry about solving a made up issue and hope it conforms to what the employee reviewing it considers…

"Do accountants have to ..."

I'm a qualified accountant, and have, during an on-site interview, been asked to update a company cap table based on some information about additional fundraising and employee grant transactions.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#168

Post by shady-lady »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #167
shady-lady wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you complain about having to spend a couple hours outside the interview on work, maybe you don't really want the job that bad enough Maybe I'm talking to more than one company and don't feel like subjecting myself to this absolute nonsense over & over. Maybe I'm just feeling out the opportunity without having to worry about solving a made up issue and hope it conforms to what the employee reviewing it considers…

"Do accountants have to ..." I'm a qualified accountant, and have, during an on-site interview, been asked to update a company cap table based on some information about additional fundraising and employee grant transactions.

notwithstanding that (itself an interesting data point)

> before being allowed to have an actual conversation with a peer about the role?

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#170

Post by rahimnathwani »

shady-lady wrote: post #168
rahimnathwani wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do accountants have to ..." I'm a qualified accountant, and have, during an on-site interview, been asked to update a company cap table based on some information about additional fundraising and employee grant transactions.

notwithstanding that (itself an interesting data point) > before being allowed to have an actual conversation with a peer about the role?

During the first conversation with a peer.
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