Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

gayle.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 179 posts

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#61

Post by wirrbel »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #56
wirrbel wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know about the US but here it would be reason enough for my employer to terminate me right away. This is the default for employments. For work on the side, I need to ask my employer for permission. My employer will then be concerned that all labour protection laws will not be violated, which for example means that my employer must accept that I might not be able to work overtime for them, with a side contract,…

In terms of hours per day worked, what is the actual difference between doing an unpaid take-home test? Signing a contract is just being honest about the time it's going to take to learn about the candidate. What about onsite interviews, do you have to tell your supervisor that is the reason you are taking off work? Would they be OK with that?

One major problem is that the employer has the right to monetize work products that are close enough to your jobs work. So if my side project is writing a novel, there isn't much danger and the employer must basically grant the permission.if it is related to coding things get trickier. With a contract for coding I would basically transfer monetization rights to you. for that I would have to ask my employer.

So I would not do take home exams that could appear to be consulting work etc. Of it appears to be a test, it is fine(r).

Note that this is tricky for open source work too, you are doing on the side. (At least in my legislation). Contributions that are closely related to my work topics I usually ask for a permit according to company policy. For completely unrelated stuff (writing that interpreter in prolog, etc.) I assume my employer is disinterested (they really are). I cannot assume that for contract work with another company.

Anyway, a judge, given a CONTRACT with another company that was not approved has the easiest case in front of them. This is the situation I want to avoid. I wouldn't bet on a judge to dive into the details on what stuff was coded in this situation.

You mention the on-site interview. This is easy. It is not a consulting or contracting gig. So I don't need to get a side-work permit, and they are treated as any of my other absences when I don't supply a reason.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#62

Post by homonculus1 »

FlipperBucket wrote: post #33
tombert wrote: post #28

I had a friend that did an interview homework assignment, was declined for the job, then found out that they used his assignment's code in production through a friend that already worked at the company. While I'll admit that this is atypical, it seems like something a more nefarious company could abuse.

So it was an accurate depiction of what they would be working on? It seems like this is akin to the goal.

That is... missing the point.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#63

Post by icedchai »

wirrbel wrote: post #49
icedchai wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but totally unenforceable... It's a non-issue. Developers are not slaves, and you cannot prevent them from doing outside work while looking for other jobs.

Don't know about the US but here it would be reason enough for my employer to terminate me right away. This is the default for employments. For work on the side, I need to ask my employer for permission. My employer will then be concerned that all labour protection laws will not be violated, which for example means that my employer must accept that I might not be able to work overtime for them, with a side contract,…

Interesting. Where are you from? In the US, nobody even knows about side jobs unless you tell them.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#64

Post by kokey »

netaustin wrote: post #12

My company, a fully remote consulting firm, uses test projects for some candidates whose skills we cannot fully evaluate using the code samples they have submitted. We only use test projects under conditions designed to skirt the clear pitfalls mentioned in this article. - We pay all candidates for the test project, whether they pass or fail. The original article did not mention paying for homework, which we conclude…

I also think paying for the time is the only way it can be fair, in particular for more experienced candidates who will resent the time wasted as opposed to junior candidates who could see it as being given an opportunity.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#65

Post by jasonincanada »

I recently did a homework assignment as the first step in an application process, and I didn't find it inappropriate or untoward at all. It's certainly not abusive, I don't understand why the author used this term. It got me through to the second step, a video conference interview with a couple developers and a chance to go over my code, explain my reasoning, answer some challenge questions, etc, in other words, tech screening. I didn't end up getting the position, but at no point did I feel my time was being wasted or that I was being disrespected.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#67

Post by ghaff »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #56
wirrbel wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know about the US but here it would be reason enough for my employer to terminate me right away. This is the default for employments. For work on the side, I need to ask my employer for permission. My employer will then be concerned that all labour protection laws will not be violated, which for example means that my employer must accept that I might not be able to work overtime for them, with a side contract,…

In terms of hours per day worked, what is the actual difference between doing an unpaid take-home test? Signing a contract is just being honest about the time it's going to take to learn about the candidate. What about onsite interviews, do you have to tell your supervisor that is the reason you are taking off work? Would they be OK with that?

It's not even so much about the contract or the payment. Doing work for a competitor period may well be a violation of an employment contract. Now, sure. Probably no one will find out and you're not really doing work on the side for a competitor. But, personally, I'd be very hesitant to do something that explicitly violates at least the letter of my employment contract even if I were pretty sure I wouldn't be caught.

By contrast, it's no one's business what I'm doing on my day off. And interviewing with other companies is almost certainly not a violation of my contract.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#68

Post by vinceguidry »

Homework assignments are fun and interesting to do, so long as I don't already have a job or I've golfed my day job down to a few hours a week. But if I have a non-trivial day job the intrusion into my personal life quickly becomes unmanageable. I declined to continue three opportunities because the homework was ridiculous in various ways.

If your organization assigns me homework, I'm going to look very carefully at it to ascertain whether the filtering function it serves is meat-grinder'y or not. If it feels like a meat grinder, you won't even get an answer from me as to why I didn't complete it. There just won't be any further contact.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#69

Post by MiddleEndian »

gamache wrote: post #2

Candidates who don't have a portfolio with code I can look at: hope you like homework. I don't like asking for unpaid labor, but I also won't risk my team blowing hours interviewing someone who has no chance of being successful here.

No matter what interview process you use to filter out candidates, people will be upset. I actually don't mind doing white board interviews because I find that the pressure is less than peak pressure at an actual job and I don't have to deal with minor API issues.

But I like the idea of homework because you don't need to find an excuse to take a day off from work, especially if you are interviewing at multiple companies.

Re: Companies shouldn't give candidates homework assignments

#70

Post by pmiller2 »

Let’s compare this to a recent experience I had with a recruiter from Square. Among other things, I was told that in a 1 hour phone screen, I was to write code as if it were production code, and not “just interview hacking.” She also suggested I read Cracking the Coding Interview ! For a phone screen!

I think this is frankly ridiculous. What do you think the rest of the interview process is like? At best, it’s cargo culting. At worst, it’s abuse.

Edit: I should add that no guidance was given as to what the standards for “production code” in this phone screen were.

Post reply on HN