National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#251

Post by shekelstien » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:35 PM UTC

WtfRuSerious wrote: post #206

api_or_ipa wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're totally right. What better way to show inmates the virtue of living an upright life than to treat them just like real people. If you pay them 85c/hr they'll resent The Man even harder and see a life of crime as the only way they'll ever succeed. Pay them for their hardwork and they'll learn they can succeed in life by hardwork, determination and honesty, all virtues that prison _should_ be about instilling.

I'm going to use a alt account for this ( for obvious reasons )... I disagree with this sentiment, I was ( some 20 years ago ) incarcerated for drug dealing. I broke the law ( much more than I was caught and prosecuted for btw... ) and I deserved what I got, probably more. For the record, being in prison sucks... it's SUPPOSED to suck, it's supposed to make you regret what you did to get put in there and actively loo…

Thank you for having common sense (and partially restoring my faith in humanity).

Prison exists as a punishment for crimes.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#252

Post by wutbrodo » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:37 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

> The same argument could justify slavery

The same argument _was_ used to justify slavery, for a couple centuries.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#253

Post by KirinDave » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:40 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #214

fipple wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they should pay rent and should be paid proper wages, to accelerate reintroduction to society. Don’t do any work? Get the worst cell, with rent written off. Work as a firefighter? Get $30/hour which you can use to get better living conditions and better food in prison.

To each child rapist a pony, to each law abiding productive citizen, a lump of coal. Seems reasonable to me.

I know I'm going to deeply regret asking, but I'm morbidly curious why you think this rhetorical strategy is relevant and meaningful.

If the only people going to prison were rapists, we wouldn't have the largest prison population in the developed world as an absolute and a percentage of our population.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#254

Post by mnm1 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:45 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

> The same argument could justify slavery.

Not to be pedantic, but this is slavery, allowed by our own constitution. Of course this argument is used to justify it although under the law, no justification is needed. What we need to do is to get rid of slavery altogether in America in 2018 and beyond. It's ridiculous that we call out other countries for human rights abuses while we have slavery all throughout our prisons, especially in the south (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, and Texas).

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#255

Post by phry » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:45 PM UTC

ada1981 wrote: post #186

conanbatt wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. The perverse incentive of increasing prison times to generate more cheap labor.

This is certainly a huge issue. The meta-system is completely fucked, no question. But this subsystem is being presented in a skewed way. Yes it’s $1/hour; but you also earn a day of freedom for each day you work.

'Arbeit macht frei' eh

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#256

Post by microcolonel » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:46 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #253

microcolonel wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To each child rapist a pony, to each law abiding productive citizen, a lump of coal. Seems reasonable to me.

I know I'm going to deeply regret asking, but I'm morbidly curious why you think this rhetorical strategy is relevant and meaningful. If the only people going to prison were rapists, we wouldn't have the largest prison population in the developed world as an absolute and a percentage of our population.

> If the only people going to prison were rapists, we wouldn't have the largest prison population in the developed world as an absolute and a percentage of our population.

That's not the point though, it's that no distinction is being drawn here. We already put a considerable effort into predicting recidivism, but people in this thread seem to assume that the majority, or all prisoners warrant an expensive supported release, despite the obvious likelihood that a certain number are virtually guaranteed to want to reoffend, and would use any resources they're given to do so.

As much as anyone, I am against the excessive policies which force fine people into a lifetime of criminality. However that problem can not be solved with release policy, it has to be solved in criminal law.

New Yorkers, don't seem to bring issues like their ridiculous knife laws (which frequently target innocent people who use folding knives at work; knives which are sold openly in major cities) to the ballot; many states chock full of people who complain about excess imprisonment don't vote on issues surrounding the policies and law which make soft recreational drugs an underground criminal enterprise, and produce unexpected black markets in services like hair styling.

Ironically, the people who complain about the prison population most vocally, are frequently the same people who say "there ought to be a law!" whenever the slightest issue arises in public life.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#257

Post by jlawson » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:46 PM UTC

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

>they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release

Given the welfare system and what I've seen of crime stats, my impression is that crimes that could be described as "stealing to survive" are nearly non-existent. Even mentally ill homeless people rarely "steal to survive". The soup kitchen, subsidized apartment and welfare cheque are a lot easier.

And anyway, how many times do you need to shoplift bread from the market before you get sent to prison? Is such a thing even possible?

People commit prison-worthy crimes because they need a lot of money fast for drugs, or out of anger or for revenge or over gang disputes and personal disputes. "Stealing to survive" doesn't really exist in developed countries, so your argument makes no sense.

I'd be really interested in any crime stats to support the idea that a substantial number of prisoner are there for crimes that were necessary for survival. Do we even send people to prison for crimes like this?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#258

Post by nicodjimenez » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:48 PM UTC

pythonslayer wrote: post #19

AcerbicZero wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only time I heard anyone being sentenced to "hard labor" was in the military, so it seems like if you're given incarceration at your sentencing then that shouldn't automatically mean you're being sentenced to work while you're there? The punishment is incarceration, not labor, right? I guess this is an area where I'm exceptionally under-educated, so if you've got any good suggestions for reading on the topic I'd…

It makes sense to me. As a person with Autism, I have always been scared of a misunderstanding with a police officer that would land me in jail, which is a common issue. I would calm my nerves by telling myself “it will be OK. I will think of it as a lot of time to read.” I later learned books are very hard to come by at prisons, which adds a bit to my fear of going out and doing things. Knowing I would be forced to…

Just don't drink and drive, don't hang out with volatile people, respect police offers, and you'll be ok. It also helps to be white / be female when dealing with law enforcement but not everyone has such luxuries. Living in fear is no way to live! Think of it this way: if cops weren't around things would be MUCH less safe, so thank god we have them

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#259

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 11:48 PM UTC

penguat wrote: post #231

leetcrew wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what constitutes a "living wage" when you don't have to pay rent or buy food?

hmmm, about this not having to pay rent - prisoners with partners and children currently can't pay their chunk of the rent, but I bet many would, if they could.

[deleted]

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#260

Post by jaccarmac » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 12:00 AM UTC

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #237

ZainRiz wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they're not really "bad actors" Most people in prison today are there because of "drug offenses" which usually means they got caught doing drugs themselves (not dealing drugs or being involved in drug induced crimes).

This is a REALLY common misconception. Including "drug offenses" the U.S. incarceration rate is 693 per 100,000. Excluding "drug offenses" the U.S. incarceration rate is still 625 per 100,000. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/releasing-drug-offender... I agree with you that we should get the drug offenders out. But the characterizations that "most people are in prison for drug offenses" should be updated.

Is incarceration rate not somewhat deceptive though? A more interesting statistic would be how many of each 100,000 had ever spent time in prison.

From here on is only speculation and I'll do a deeper dive when I'm not on a phone. I'd like to see the rest of the statistics broken down by offense. Additionally I suspect that drug offenses would lead to repeated incarceration and perhaps eventually worse offenses.

Most violent offenses are committed in the context of existing relationships though, so there are certainly non-policy and certainly non-drug-policy ways to address crime in the United States.