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National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

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Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#231

Post by penguat »

leetcrew wrote: post #219
fzeroracer wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prisons should absolutely offer gainful employment because that's one of the best ways they can be reintegrated into society which I would hope is the goal of prison! If prisoners could be given a living wage then I would bet you would have less of them returning to selling drugs etc in order to survive because they leave prison with literally nothing to their name.

what constitutes a "living wage" when you don't have to pay rent or buy food?

hmmm, about this not having to pay rent - prisoners with partners and children currently can't pay their chunk of the rent, but I bet many would, if they could.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#232

Post by jakeinspace »

A common argument against offering minimum wage work or advanced technical training to prisoners is that this reduces the disincentive of prison time. From a purely logical standpoint I can see how that makes some amount of sense, but in reality I don't think anybody committing petty or significant crimes would be swayed one way or the other over the opportunity for $7/hour in prison. The lack of freedom - to see family, friends, live an actual life - that's the disincentive. Not to mention the employment and housing prospects of a convicted felon, which are terrible.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#233

Post by fipple »

microcolonel wrote: post #214
fipple wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they should pay rent and should be paid proper wages, to accelerate reintroduction to society. Don’t do any work? Get the worst cell, with rent written off. Work as a firefighter? Get $30/hour which you can use to get better living conditions and better food in prison.

To each child rapist a pony, to each law abiding productive citizen, a lump of coal. Seems reasonable to me.

Child rapists shouldn’t ever be let out of jail, so it’s irrelevant what happens to them there.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#234

Post by acomar »

rule_follower wrote: post #132
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

>Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. Sitting in a cage or a large room with other inmates with nothing productive to do can itself be considered a form of psychological torture, which is precisely what some proponents of prison industry have argued: https://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/1147470

Maybe we should rehabilitate criminals in some fashion that doesn't involve indentured servitude or putting them in cages and reserve the latter only for those who cannot be rehabilitated. Trying to argue that forced labor is more humane is morally bankrupt from the get-go. That it's being made by people with a literal financial incentive to see the system not change only underscores that point.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#235

Post by Retric »

Rylinks wrote: post #222
conanbatt wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prisons are a service for the free people to have safety, they should paid by them. It is insidious to make prisoners pay for the prison, they are not the recipients of the service, its just adding a layer of oppression. But if you dont like a moral argument, make it an economic one. Each prisoner in california costs like 100k a year: if you paid them reasonable salaries, and they reduce re-incarceration rates yo…

How is making prisoners pay for the prison any different than a court fining someone convicted of a crime?

Lowering the cost to society for a huge prison population is Dangerous.

Forcing prisoners to pay for their incarceration creates the same incentives as slavery.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#236

Post by pilsetnieks »

fzeroracer wrote: post #73
zaroth wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely. But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?

Prisons should absolutely offer gainful employment because that's one of the best ways they can be reintegrated into society which I would hope is the goal of prison! If prisoners could be given a living wage then I would bet you would have less of them returning to selling drugs etc in order to survive because they leave prison with literally nothing to their name.

Isn't that a problem with modern society in general that sustenance equals employment, barring some exceptions, that are more or less hated depending on the current political climate?

Also, what if they cannot find jobs paying living wage? Wouldn't they just be more motivated to return to prison?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#237

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

ZainRiz wrote: post #129
pmarreck wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t disagree but just wanted to say something: The whole point of money was to make it possible for 2+ good actors to do legal (and different) work/goods/services for each other while profiting. Most people who end up in prison were “bad actors” by definition. The system was not benefiting from them. And thus I can’t help thinking that they don’t really deserve any of the system’s monetary medium of exchange.

Except they're not really "bad actors" Most people in prison today are there because of "drug offenses" which usually means they got caught doing drugs themselves (not dealing drugs or being involved in drug induced crimes).

This is a REALLY common misconception.

Including "drug offenses" the U.S. incarceration rate is 693 per 100,000.

Excluding "drug offenses" the U.S. incarceration rate is still 625 per 100,000.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/releasing-drug-offender...

I agree with you that we should get the drug offenders out. But the characterizations that "most people are in prison for drug offenses" should be updated.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#238

Post by Barrin92 »

tryitnow wrote: post #169

Paying prisoners absurdly low wages teaches them that honest labor doesn't pay. Isn't this exactly the opposite of what we want them to learn? I readily that my emotional side wants to prison to be as punitive as possible. But my rational side just wants to live in a society with less crime. And teaching prisoners that honest labor pays is an important lesson in getting them to behave themselves when they get out.

>. Isn't this exactly the opposite of what we want them to learn?

I don't think anybody who is involved in what can only be described as a prison industry at this point is interested in teaching them anything.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#239

Post by rosser »

a1369209993 wrote: post #172
rosser wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment was about kids mowing neighborhood lawns, not their own. Please try to address the argument I actually made.

I was; my comment was about the purported lack of repercussions for disobediance. Also, you were responding to: > a teenager mowing the lawn for their parents which was about their (owner's) own lawn.

The full quote I was responding to is:

>>>> What's the difference between a teenager mowing the lawn for their parents and someone paid to mow a lawn?

In response to which, I said:

>>> The kid getting paid to mow neighborhood lawns has:

Selective quoting tends to change the context a bit, don't you think?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#240

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

Amazes me that occupational licensing laws will prevent these inmates after being released from working as firefighter (because CA won't let former criminals work for the government), while somehow CA is fine having them work as slaves for the government while incarcerated.
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