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National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

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Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#181

Post by jakelazaroff »

pmarreck wrote: post #123
makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I don’t disagree but just wanted to say something: The whole point of money was to make it possible for 2+ good actors to do legal (and different) work/goods/services for each other while profiting. Most people who end up in prison were “bad actors” by definition. The system was not benefiting from them. And thus I can’t help thinking that they don’t really deserve any of the system’s monetary medium of exchange.

The point of a medium of exchange (money) is to make it easy for there to be a coincidence of wants between people who might transact. It has nothing to do with whether you're a "good" or "bad" actor.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#182

Post by maxerickson »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #166
omegaworks wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits. Bingo. Private prisons have no incentive to reduce recidivism.

Why is this being downvoted? Jon Oliver did a bit a while back on private prisons. The investigation uncovered an investor sales pitch which bragged of "high recidivism rates"

Probably because it's unlikely the other poster is talking about a private prison.

"Jail" often means a county operated facility and then at the state and federal level most prisoners are still held in publicly administered facilities.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#183

Post by cristoperb »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #166
omegaworks wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits. Bingo. Private prisons have no incentive to reduce recidivism.

Why is this being downvoted? Jon Oliver did a bit a while back on private prisons. The investigation uncovered an investor sales pitch which bragged of "high recidivism rates"

The Jon Oliver episode on prison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pz3syET3DY

See also Shane Bauer's undercover report "My Four Months as a Private Prison Guard":

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/cca-private-pri...

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#184

Post by fipple »

jupiter90000 wrote: post #176
fipple wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they should pay rent and should be paid proper wages, to accelerate reintroduction to society. Don’t do any work? Get the worst cell, with rent written off. Work as a firefighter? Get $30/hour which you can use to get better living conditions and better food in prison.

There would need to be an equivalent or greater effort to help them obtain jobs and nice living spaces outside of prison, otherwise: "Can't find a job out here! I'm gonna go back to prison and get me that sweet $30/hr prison job, where I can afford nice food and place to live. Also if I don't feel like working they'll take care of me." Not to mention, prisons now incentivized to soak up that larger cashflow and get m…

Everything should be much worse on the inside than the outside. You can use your job to get yourself a single cell rather than a shared cell, etc. and since prisoners are largely able bodied men they should be able to make enough money to defeat the cost of their room and board (probably not their guarding).

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#185

Post by oathbreaker »

pmarreck wrote: post #123
makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I don’t disagree but just wanted to say something: The whole point of money was to make it possible for 2+ good actors to do legal (and different) work/goods/services for each other while profiting. Most people who end up in prison were “bad actors” by definition. The system was not benefiting from them. And thus I can’t help thinking that they don’t really deserve any of the system’s monetary medium of exchange.

> Most people who end up in prison were “bad actors” by definition.

Disagree. Majority of the offenders are there for non-violent drug offenses. It is also possible some of them are serving sentences for crimes that are no more crimes. California has liberalized marijuana but the prisoners are still in jail for the crimes that no more crimes.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#186

Post by ada1981 »

conanbatt wrote: post #126
ada1981 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. This actually seems like a pretty good deal, what would you pay to get a day off your sentence? That said, I think the Prision system is fucked, has horrible incentives, private companies abuse bought prison labor, etc. etc. But I actually felt like thi…

> It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. The perverse incentive of increasing prison times to generate more cheap labor.

This is certainly a huge issue. The meta-system is completely fucked, no question.

But this subsystem is being presented in a skewed way. Yes it’s $1/hour; but you also earn a day of freedom for each day you work.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#187

Post by conanbatt »

zaroth wrote: post #145
conanbatt wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either you like a rule for minimum wage or you dont, if you start choosing who gets it you subvert the very core principle that people deserve a sustenance wage. It would be reasonable to devote 10-20% of the wages to prison maintenance or victims reparations, but saying their labor is worth 1$ is preposterous.

There are a lot of rules and regulations which do not apply to prisoners. Likewise there are a lot of rules and regulations which only apply to prisoners. It’s not unreasonable to treat prisoners as a unique population / special case. They are not incarcerated so that they can continue gainful employment. Prisoners should not be getting paid to cook, clean, do laundry, etc. to help operate the prison, for example. My…

The prisons are a service for the free people to have safety, they should paid by them. It is insidious to make prisoners pay for the prison, they are not the recipients of the service, its just adding a layer of oppression.

But if you dont like a moral argument, make it an economic one. Each prisoner in california costs like 100k a year: if you paid them reasonable salaries, and they reduce re-incarceration rates you will be saving orders of magnitude more money.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#188

Post by sgslo »

almostdeadguy wrote: post #179
reaperducer wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up). It's one of several measures to keep the inmates docile. See also: feeding them low-quality food, and only enough for survival. A hungry, sleep-deprived prisoner isn't going to revolt, and after release may think twice about going back.

You sound like a horrible person

Why is that?

Their post did not advocate for those conditions, nor is it likely that this is the person who originally instituted those conditions.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#189

Post by ada1981 »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #142
ada1981 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. This actually seems like a pretty good deal, what would you pay to get a day off your sentence? That said, I think the Prision system is fucked, has horrible incentives, private companies abuse bought prison labor, etc. etc. But I actually felt like thi…

> It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. Interesting. You could conceivably rationalize that as being equivalent to a fair wage--every day you work gets you one extra day closer to getting out and starting a real job. Of course that still ignores the obvious problem of how hard it is for a b…

I think the fire program is probably one of the better subsystems.

You get better visitation, you are outside, I’d imagine that though dangerous, fighting fires is rewarding. Plus you earn a day of freedom for every day worked.

They ought to give them the training to become fire fighters when they get out though, and work to change laws preventing felons from firefighting work.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#190

Post by SahAssar »

chuckgreenman wrote: post #80

On the one hand, you don't really want there to be much of an economy in prison. The more money inmates make the more they have to bribe corrections workers and create an unsafe environment. On the other hand, we can't keep wages so low in these institutions that basic hygiene items require a hours on hours of work. How do you expect someone to go from incarcerated to living in the world with no money? I swear we jus…

If you keep people in a prison you are also obligated to feed them and keep them supplied with basic necessities like basic hygiene items.

Nobody in prison should need to work to wash themselves or brush their teeth.

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