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National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

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Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#61

Post by rayiner »

noobermin wrote: post #32
aggronn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While we're talking about slavery, it might be important to mention that the constitution specifically allows slavery in this context: > "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." - 13th amendment

IANAL but a naive reading of that could justify community service may be. These prisoners were not convicted and sentenced to be firemen.

They're not being compelled to be firemen.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#62

Post by rosser »

rayiner wrote: post #57
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

> Nobody is arguing you should have to pay kids minimum wage for doing chores...

"Chores" and "labor" are categorically different things, and the motivation for the former isn't usually "offsetting their upkeep", so much as it's "instilling a sense of personal responsibility".

This is a specious comparison.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#63

Post by omegaworks »

throwaway0x7647 wrote: post #53

My brother just went to jail and I’m just learning how crazy some things are there. They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up). No one can properly function after repeated nights of less than 4 hours of sleep. I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits.

>I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits.

Bingo. Private prisons have no incentive to reduce recidivism.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#64

Post by zaroth »

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners.

Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely.

But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#65

Post by rayiner »

rosser wrote: post #62
rayiner wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

> Nobody is arguing you should have to pay kids minimum wage for doing chores... "Chores" and "labor" are categorically different things, and the motivation for the former isn't usually "offsetting their upkeep", so much as it's "instilling a sense of personal responsibility". This is a specious comparison.

Historically, "chores" included carrying a share of one's upkeep by doing work on a farm, cooking, etc. In many places, it still does.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#66

Post by uxp100 »

rosser wrote: post #62
rayiner wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

> Nobody is arguing you should have to pay kids minimum wage for doing chores... "Chores" and "labor" are categorically different things, and the motivation for the former isn't usually "offsetting their upkeep", so much as it's "instilling a sense of personal responsibility". This is a specious comparison.

What's the difference between a teenager mowing the lawn for their parents and someone paid to mow a lawn?

Furthermore, when a farmer's child does chores alongside a paid laborer, what's going on?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#67

Post by gammateam »

aggronn wrote: post #27
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

While we're talking about slavery, it might be important to mention that the constitution specifically allows slavery in this context: > "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." - 13th amendment

out of curiosity, do you think an amendment to that could reach consensus with more awareness? federal prison could be fixed easily with congress and the executive branch, but fixing the patch work of state level would require a constitutional amendment.

also, there are a lot of constitutional things - like eugenics programs - that simply aren't practiced anymore anywhere. so awareness and public disfavor can alter the reality without a legal change being necessary.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#68

Post by tbirrell »

geofft wrote: post #43
whatshisface wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a non-incarcerated person finds it necessary to work in order to pay for their food and housing, are they being forced to work against their will?

Well, yes. Food and housing should be human rights. A fulfilling or comfortable life is not, but life is a human right. But even if you don't agree with that interpretation of the human right of life, prisoners typically aren't free participants in the market. They're being paid well below average wages for the work they're doing, which a) makes it feel like a technicality that they're getting paid for their work, an…

The right /to/ life is different from the right /of/ life.

The right to life means that no one can deprive you of your life, but neither is society obligated to ensure you have a life.

The right of life means that you are owed a life and it must be given to you by the relevant authorities.

The reason this is important because the former gives you control over your life, and the latter operates at the whim of the governing authority. To make that a little clearer, the right to life requires passive governmental involvement, the right of life requires active governmental involvement. Guess which one goes out the window as soon as its inconvenient.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#69

Post by rayiner »

fzeroracer wrote: post #60
rayiner wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a le…

If you're comparing grown adults to children in this scenario you're making a fallacious comparison right out of the gate.

That's one difference, sure, but the two situations are similar as well. In both cases, a person's basic life needs (food, housing, etc.) are met by someone else. When it comes to children, we generally accept that forcing people to contribute to their own upkeep is not wrong, whether it's working on the farm or cooking, etc. Why is it different for prisoners?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#70

Post by crooked-v »

zaroth wrote: post #64
makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely. But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?

> I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners.

Why?

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