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Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

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Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#241

Post by mindentropy »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #230
rtpg wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we gave immigrants more job mobility (notably not attaching the people to the company they work with or making the process so complicated that you need corporate sponsors to go through) then wages would basically be the same as for locals. Software engineering has the lowest unemployment of any major job category in the world. Beyond it being the right thing to do, making it easier for people abroad to work in the…

Maybe I'm misreading you, but why do they have to move to the US at all? I had a few foreign coworkers that were being paid very competitive salaries while working remotely from Europe and Asia. They came to visit a couple times a year, for a few weeks at a time, and that was it. I'm happy to work with people all over the world, I don't need to see you face-to-face every day. I really enjoy seeing people a few times…

> What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either.

After being in Germany and also working with them I am really impressed by the union and the strong labour laws that they have. Really helps in the work life balance for them and how I really wish my country had it.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#242

Post by ForHackernews »

uissna wrote: post #10

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the…

> You don't see many visa holders working in sales and marketing, or teaching, or law, mostly just software engineering

That's because unlike software engineering, all of those other jobs rely heavily on [natural] language and cultural fluency.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#243

Post by bkor »

Aloha wrote: post #144
fjsolwmv wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the farms, even basic laws banning hiring illegal immigrants get immediately blocked by a coalition of pro-immigration activists and big companies in the industry.

Without illegal immigrants crops would literally rot in the fields. I don't like illegal immigration, I'd rather there be a easy legal program to allow temporary workers, but there isn't, and I like eating.

The Netherlands exports a huge amount of food and loads of the work is fully automated. For the work which isn't there's still a lot of seasonal work. For that they do employ people, often from lower paid countries such as e.g. Poland. Poland isn't far away from The Netherlands.

From what I saw in a documentary the Dutch farmers heavily optimize pretty much everything they can, not only through automation.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#244

Post by seventhtiger »

stale2002 wrote: post #105
yanslookup wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They" are already designing this and it'll make the problem worse not better. They will keep the 4 DoL skill levels used for H1B and put caps at each level. The extra twist is it will be in the shape of a pyramid where there are fewer highly skill slots but enough for the Google's, and then a lot more for the lower levels. So that company that was continually denied their $55k level 4 "senior dev" in Dallas in the l…

Then don't adjust it based on location. Highest salary wins. No low level people would get it, as it would be bidding accross the board. If you aren't willing to pay that scientist 150K, then you lose the bid to the software engineer hired in the Bay area.

I heard this proposal a lot, and I think it's very SF/tech centered. Big tech and finance would buy every visa and suck all the talent from the world.

But sometimes the best value for the host country is to get an immigrant doctor that's willing to go to a rural area for less pay than the big tech engineers.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#245

Post by turtlecloud »

American engineers are getting shafted by the H1B visa program. The H1B work harder because they have a figurative gun pointed at their heads. Work or leave the country. Why would any sane American work that hard?

It is a race to the bottom and the big tech companies at playin with fire. The societal damage is currently unquantifiable, but for an astute observers and people with common sense it’s not good.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#246

Post by seventhtiger »

jtr_47 wrote: post #96

H1B needs to be abolished. It has only been used to suppress US wages and to bring in lower paying bodies to do the same work a properly trained US Citizen could perform in IT. There's no shortage of IT skills in the USA. They should be punished to the fullest.

That doesn't add up at all. How can there not be shortage of IT skills? IT is one of if not the most profitable field per employee with the lowest unemployment rates, and IT companies are flush with cash.

IT companies would love to launch entire new products and divisions and recruitment is their bottleneck.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#247

Post by tom_ »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #28
fjsolwmv wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attracting the most talented immigrants is exactly what this country needs to grow its economy. There are nearly no unemployed top talent, and talent (including immigrants) grows demand. Look how many startups are spawned from the top tech company veterans. Taking in brilliant immmigrants is a defenst against the whole industry shifting the balance of power to a different country.

That's great except that H1B is not supposed to be used to suppress domestic salaries or replace existing workers (Disney IT). This is openly happening and the government won't do anything to correct this illegal behavior. It's 2018 and Trump's executive order has amounted to nothing. Consider these 2016 numbers from USCIS [1] (Can't find 2017 data. Wonder why). All of the Indian body shops pay sub-$90K as their aver…

I’m on an iPad so I can’t check, but i think the underlying data for H1-B info comes from here: https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm (click ‘Disclosure data’, download enormous PERM spreadsheet)

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#248

Post by TheAceOfHearts »

jahaja wrote: post #232
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm misreading you, but why do they have to move to the US at all? I had a few foreign coworkers that were being paid very competitive salaries while working remotely from Europe and Asia. They came to visit a couple times a year, for a few weeks at a time, and that was it. I'm happy to work with people all over the world, I don't need to see you face-to-face every day. I really enjoy seeing people a few times…

> What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either. Given that companies are consistently and fiercely fighting off unionization should be a tip off. In any case, some examples: * Better pay and benefits. The US is miles away from Europe in this issue because of this very reason. * Not having to talk to HR when you're experiencing vario…

Could you enumerate some of those benefits? I'm not seeing the "better pay" in any example I've seen online. And benefits are questionable, and rather subjective. I don't want my job to provide anything, I want them to pay me a lot of money and let me take care of my problems without becoming involved. Most "job benefits" are just bullhshit and ways to cut taxes.

I don't mind talking to HR. You should always hire a lawyer if you're having any serious discussions anyway, so I don't see in what way a union would help me. If your HR department won't let you discuss something without a lawyer present, that's a clear sign you need to leave immediately.

Your power is that you have an influential position within the company, and if you leave it will cause them to have to hire someone and teach them all the intricacies of your industry. This takes a lot of time and it's incredibly expensive.

If an engineer is fired for a bullshit reason (i.e. I don't like em), other engineers will speak up if they think it's unjustified. I'll also make sure to publicly express my criticisms of the company so nobody within my social circle will seriously consider joining.

Maybe a union makes more sense for a larger company, but so far I'm unconvinced by your points. Like I said, I'm not against unions, but I'm unclear as to what benefits I'd get for joining one.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#249

Post by yanslookup »

stale2002 wrote: post #105
yanslookup wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They" are already designing this and it'll make the problem worse not better. They will keep the 4 DoL skill levels used for H1B and put caps at each level. The extra twist is it will be in the shape of a pyramid where there are fewer highly skill slots but enough for the Google's, and then a lot more for the lower levels. So that company that was continually denied their $55k level 4 "senior dev" in Dallas in the l…

Then don't adjust it based on location. Highest salary wins. No low level people would get it, as it would be bidding accross the board. If you aren't willing to pay that scientist 150K, then you lose the bid to the software engineer hired in the Bay area.

This is the same system with the same problem. Yes highest salary wins but the ultimate goal is to increase the cap. If the cap is increased to 300k per year and they switch to an auction, you are going to get more 55k senior engineers in dallas and they get to say they fixed the problem.

Really, they don't care what happens as long as the cap is increased.

Re: Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

#250

Post by jahaja »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #248
jahaja wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either. Given that companies are consistently and fiercely fighting off unionization should be a tip off. In any case, some examples: * Better pay and benefits. The US is miles away from Europe in this issue because of this very reason. * Not having to talk to HR when you're experiencing vario…

Could you enumerate some of those benefits? I'm not seeing the "better pay" in any example I've seen online. And benefits are questionable, and rather subjective. I don't want my job to provide anything, I want them to pay me a lot of money and let me take care of my problems without becoming involved. Most "job benefits" are just bullhshit and ways to cut taxes. I don't mind talking to HR. You should always hire a l…

> I'm not seeing

> I don't want

> I don't mind

> I'll also make sure [..] within my social circle

> what benefits I'd get

A business usually consists of a group of employees, some may benefit more than others, clearly you may be in the others category. But maybe some of your colleagues aren't as vocal or brave as you, or maybe they can't afford to risk losing their job etc. That's solidarity, not tweeting about something after-the-fact for the benefit of your own social circle.

That said, the highly skilled, strictly individual-minded person clearly have benefits to reap too. Comparing with most West-European countries, like:

* 5-6 weeks of paid vacation annually.

* Paid sick leave.

* Months of paid parental leave.

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