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What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

reuters.com

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Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#151

Post by graeme »

skh wrote: post #80
graeme wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not in a strong position, unfortunately. The rest of the world broadly agrees that China and Taiwan are the same country. You don't have representation in the UN, or formal recognition from most countries. Your biggest advantage was economic. But China's growth means you are now tiny compared to them, and you have a reduced ability to pay other countries for diplomatic recognition. Unlike the poster you repli…

I never gave my opinion on the matter. I just stated that the perspective was understandable and it seems you largely agree with that statement. We have the same views on the situation.

Fair enough. I misinterpreted what you meant by understandable. It had two definitons: one literal, and one moral in the sense of forgiveable

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#152

Post by mistermann »

anoncow2018sund wrote: post #141
mistermann wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hypothetically speaking, if one is opposed to some or all aspects of the "One China" doctrine, what can one do locally/globally to effect change? Voting with your wallet or voicing your concerns seem fairly futile to me. What I believe could make a difference is trying to educate people on what the honest (non-partisan) reality of the situation is, to the best of your ability. When you encounter someone online stat…

From what I see, the problem isn't so much with the truth, but rather the narrative and interpretation of these facts. For example, suppose a vaccine had a 90% success rate. This is the truth, however anti-vaxxers will focus on the 10% failure rate. Both China and Taiwan agree there was a civil war and the losers retreated to Taiwan. However, the narrative of the event is where it differs.

> From what I see, the problem isn't so much with the truth, but rather the narrative and interpretation of these facts.

Exactly.

> For example, suppose a vaccine had a 90% success rate. This is the truth, however anti-vaxxers will focus on the 10% failure rate.

And pro-vaxxers will "focus" (ie: discuss that, and only that) the success rate. But if you don't cover up the 10% and someone finds out, this is how "conspiracy theories" get started.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#153

Post by graeme »

tsuabing wrote: post #71
graeme wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not in a strong position, unfortunately. The rest of the world broadly agrees that China and Taiwan are the same country. You don't have representation in the UN, or formal recognition from most countries. Your biggest advantage was economic. But China's growth means you are now tiny compared to them, and you have a reduced ability to pay other countries for diplomatic recognition. Unlike the poster you repli…

Taiwan may be small economically, but we are still important strategically to the western world's alliance against China. The island act as a unsinkable carrier. You have your facts wrong. Chinese GDP is fake and growth is declining every year. I have many Taiwanese manufacturer friends that sees the declining Chinese sales, exploding debts, and rising wages, and have moved most of their factories out of China. Meanw…

The G7 share of world GDP has been steadily falling: http://www.economywatch.com/economic-statistics/Major-advanc...

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#154

Post by tepidandroid »

lurquer wrote: post #139
tepidandroid wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparatively speaking to what? The 20% non-military fatality rate in the decade of bombing that preceded that particular year? Vietnam? Korea? To make a hand-wavy statement such as "China won’t agonize about collateral damage the way we do" makes it sound as though you think the collective American morality is somehow superior to that of the Chinese? I'm curious how one could come to such a conclusion while taking i…

I wonder if China would treat the Tawainese civilians as gently as it treats its own? I suppose Tibet, Tianemnen, forced abortions, political prisoners, and the rest are just "hand-wavy" issues. Actually I do recall watching that one guy wave his hands a bit as he was run over by a tank in Tianemenn... or maybe it was twitching... can't recall.

Well, I suppose they are since you just hand-waved over them. I could hand-wave over any number of quantifiable, internal American social/geo-political issues also. Gun laws (Aurora, Sandy-hook, San Bernardino, Orlando, Mandalay Bay, Stoneman Douglas), mass for-profit incarceration of blacks/latinos for non-violent offences, forced births and closing of abortion clinics, Flint Michigan, response (or lack thereof) to hurricanes Katrina, Irma, Maria, just to name a few.

While we're at it, let me go ahead and hand-wave over the multitude of overseas abuses in a similar fashion. Lebanon, Cuba, Vietnam, Dominican Republic, Bolivia, Argentina, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Chile, Iran, Libya, Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Syria.

Now tell me, which of these points to any form of 'agonising' about human rights?

> Actually I do recall watching that one guy wave his hands a bit as he was run over by a tank in Tianemenn... or maybe it was twitching... can't recall.

Not to worry, it is a well known stereotype that Americans have very long memories of atrocities carried out by countries other than their own.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#155

Post by dang »

tsuabing wrote: post #25
coldtea wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am a Taiwanese millienial and I am deeply offended by this comment. Why would you say that the claim is understandable? ? Taiwan has been an independent democratic country with its own military, economy, culture, government, rules of law, and international relations for over 50 years. Doesn't this answer your own question? 50 years are nothing in historical terms.

what does that even mean??? South Korea was established in 1948. Estonia was established in 1991. The world recognizes these legitimate countries. From your past comment histories, it is clear you are pro China in every sense of the word. Maybe you should reexamine your values and see why you are so supportive of a disgusting government.

Nationalistic flamewar is an abuse of HN and will get your account banned here. It doesn't help to create a throwaway account to do it, and in fact will eventually get your main account banned as well.

Your feelings are easy to understand, but HN is an international site and people have strong feelings on all sides of such questions. For HN to continue as a forum for thoughtful discussion, we all need to remain respectful. If you can't do that, please don't post here.

Creating an account and showing up in the threads gunslinging is not ok, and levelling personal accusations against another user for political or nationalistc reasons is a bannable offense.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#156

Post by gerdesj »

Waterluvian wrote: post #148
gerdesj wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... I was a bit unfair on assuming a few things. Meghan Markle became the Duchess of Sussex on marring Prince Harry. Strictly speaking she is not a Princess but I defy anyone to enforce that fact ...

The Royal family is so cool. Its like a look through a time machine. These are real Queens and princes and dukes and lords. They don't exactly do what they used to back in the day, but the look at the ceremony and the "authenticity" is really neat. I just wish the Queen of Canada visited more. She doesn't even live here.

The Queen of Canada absolutely does live there - Rideau Hall is her residence. I accept she spends rather more time here in the UK these days but she is >90 years old.

The Canadian, British, Australian, New Zealand, etc etc Monarchy is a bit of a funny old thing but I think that through the Commonwealth (QEII's personal project) and other initiatives it is very useful and a force for good. At the moment the Royal Family are very, very popular in the UK (it hasn't always been so). They seem to have managed to re-invent themselves rather cleverly over the last 20 years or so.

The recent Royal marriage was frankly breathtaking - Harry is prince no. 2 and Megan is a Yank and yet the firm turned this into a fairy tale. Harry is as near a war hero as can be allowed and Megan is a pretty lass and clearly very bright and talented - good initial ingredients. Throw in a bloody great castle and chapel, amazing weather and a few other things and you get a right old tear jerker of a wedding.

The Queen of Canada was in attendance.

I live in the south west of England in a county called Somerset. I'm roughly 130 miles away from Buck Pal. You are a few thousand miles away but we both have the same link to our Royals.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#157

Post by Retric »

tepidandroid wrote: post #154
lurquer wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if China would treat the Tawainese civilians as gently as it treats its own? I suppose Tibet, Tianemnen, forced abortions, political prisoners, and the rest are just "hand-wavy" issues. Actually I do recall watching that one guy wave his hands a bit as he was run over by a tank in Tianemenn... or maybe it was twitching... can't recall.

Well, I suppose they are since you just hand-waved over them. I could hand-wave over any number of quantifiable, internal American social/geo-political issues also. Gun laws (Aurora, Sandy-hook, San Bernardino, Orlando, Mandalay Bay, Stoneman Douglas), mass for-profit incarceration of blacks/latinos for non-violent offences, forced births and closing of abortion clinics, Flint Michigan, response (or lack thereof) to…

The US is hardly an ideal state, but they have policies in place to limit civilian casualties and actually practice them in warfare. The process of estimating civilian casualties from each bombing run is not just as a paperwork but actually delays the use of force on a regular basis. This is a direct outgrowth of past blowback from indiscriminate total war in the past.

So, while it’s possible that China would use similar restraint you actually need to support that argument, because the American military does actually Agonize about this stuff.

Ex: http://www.jcs.mil/Portals/36/Documents/Doctrine/training/jt...

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#159

Post by candiodari »

Retric wrote: post #157
tepidandroid wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I suppose they are since you just hand-waved over them. I could hand-wave over any number of quantifiable, internal American social/geo-political issues also. Gun laws (Aurora, Sandy-hook, San Bernardino, Orlando, Mandalay Bay, Stoneman Douglas), mass for-profit incarceration of blacks/latinos for non-violent offences, forced births and closing of abortion clinics, Flint Michigan, response (or lack thereof) to…

The US is hardly an ideal state, but they have policies in place to limit civilian casualties and actually practice them in warfare . The process of estimating civilian casualties from each bombing run is not just as a paperwork but actually delays the use of force on a regular basis. This is a direct outgrowth of past blowback from indiscriminate total war in the past. So, while it’s possible that China would use si…

You misunderstand the argument. You think the argument is about the justness or unjustness of killed/wounded innocent bystanders, and other collateral damage. Rightly you argue that the US behaves far better than any of it's enemies, or for that matter allies.

When compared to Venezuela, China, Russia and the other states these people keep defending, one might rightfully point out that the US not only behaves better but it's ridiculous to claim any comparison : clearly the US is morally superior to these guys. There can be no real argument about that. And about terrorists or Palestina, well, those states don't even claim their victims have anything to do with their "war", so if they have 95% collateral damage and innocents killed, they probably consider that a mistake.

In reality the point of complaining about America's use of force is a political point meant to change the politics of the US, change the balance of social power within the US.

Therefore arguments about what does and does not happen, or what is and isn't just given people's various positions ... are beside the point.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#160

Post by candiodari »

anoncow2018sund wrote: post #142
tsuabing wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Taiwanese millienial and I am deeply offended by this comment. Why would you say that the claim is understandable? ? Taiwan has been an independent democratic country with its own military, economy, culture, government, rules of law, and international relations for over 50 years. The current Chinese government has never ruled over the island. Not to mention most Taiwanese currently support independence, especi…

> Recent polls have come in around 70-80% of Taiwanese people believing they are 'taiwanese' and in no way associated with China. Ask any Taiwanese person who is their people's greatest hero. Or ask them who is their people's greatest poet or artist. I guarantee 99% of them would name someone that was born (and died centuries ago) in China. I think the biggest irony surrounding the "Taiwanese" identity is that the re…

Half the English world might say Shakespeare or Beethoven.

Yet nobody wants to join the British empire and the country Beethoven lived in no longer exists ...

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