Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 160 posts

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#121

Post by dang »

imbokodo wrote: post #97
tomohawk wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuba's communist government nationalized property from people and corporations without any compensation. It still illegally holds these properties today. The communist Cuban government acceded to hosting Soviet nuclear missiles pointed at the US. This almost caused a nuclear war. The US embargo was based on these and many other things. It is hardly a comparable situation.

The US invaded and seized Guantanamo Bay in 1898. What was the cause for that? It's a standard American imperial idea. The US seizure and continual occupation of Guantanamo Bay is "legal". Cubans reclaiming what Americans stole in other parts of Cuba is "illegal". It's quite a joke. The US invading and seizing sugar plantations from 1898 to 1959 is legal, the American thieves being driven out is "illegal" and "withou…

You've been using HN primarily for ideological battle. It's normal to comment occasionally on a politicized topic, but using the site primarily for this is crossing the line that the guidelines draw: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. There are lots of reasons why we draw the line there, but what it boils down to is that we can't both have a site for intellectual curiosity—the mandate of this place—and also have ideological warfare. The one destroys the other, regardless of which ideology you favor. Flamewar comments like the one you just posted are an excellent illustration of this.

If you'd please review the site rules and use this place as intended from now on, we'd appreciate it.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#122

Post by _ptgt »

Simulacra wrote: post #106

I’m actually hoping Trump formally recognizes Taiwan. That’s the real sledge hammer. In all of their negotiations with China on trade, I’m really curious if that has come up as a threat.

Really, I'm not entirely sure why the G-8, the G-20, or even just EU + US + Japan + SK doesn't just do this as a group. It's not like China has a feasible retaliation option if they did, and it's certainly not going to retreat back to pre-1980 style isolation.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#123

Post by ardy42 »

coldtea wrote: post #112
knuththetruth wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The British tried a similar narrative with the War of 1812, and we in America are still alive and kicking. I hope the same for Taiwan and their independence.

Only the British and Americans weren't the same people (from a nationality perspective). Americans were merely British subjects -- from a hodge-podge of nationalities. A split into two countries South / North post Civil War would be a better example.

> Only the British and Americans weren't the same people (from a nationality perspective). Americans were merely British subjects -- from a hodge-podge of nationalities.

That seems like a distinction without a difference for this topic.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#124

Post by Retric »

jonathankoren wrote: post #115
Retric wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan has a relatively strong military and while China would easily win any war, it would be crazy to fight it’s military.

It had a military advantage. It doesn’t anymore.[0] Taiwan has not been sold modern equipment, while China has increased military spending and operational capability. Being an island, Taiwan always had to rely on holding off an invading force for as long as possible. This historically meant until the US Navy could reinforce its defenses. Now with China’s anti access area denial strategy, this is becoming a less certa…

China has nuclear weapons, so in terms of total war the direct outcome is not in question.

The issue is Taiwan is capable of putting up enough of a fight to make it loud internationally and painful domestically. The population does not want to join a poorly run country with 1/4th it’s per capita GDP. It would be able to retaliate and hit major Chinease cities making it an extremely expensive war etc etc. And after they won they would not have an prosperous nation just a huge and angry mess.

PS: Most interestingly the people on the ground in Taiwan with the most information are scaling back military spending. So, presumably they believe the threat of war is minimal.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#125

Post by paulie_a »

imbokodo wrote: post #113
paulie_a wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a license to travel Amtrak. In many cases you don't even need a ticket when boarding the train. I routinely buy mine after it has left the station.

You might want to send a note to Amtrak's web site, as they say their policy is otherwise https://www.amtrak.com/passenger-identification

Hell no, I love the low friction travel. But I haven't been asked for an ID on Amtrak since the mid 2000s when they still served booze on that line. On the line I use most frequently they never ask for an ID. And a ticket for tomorrow works for today. Almost nothing nothing in that faq is adhered to on my experience.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#126

Post by votepaunchy »

hkmurakami wrote: post #37
skh wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that Taiwan will eventually merge with the mainland. Perhaps via the two-systems one China route that Hong Kong did. The claims of mainland China on Taiwan are understandable and I don't fault them for their perspective on the issue. Is the United States really willing to go to war with China over this? I don't think so. Are Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines willing to go to war with Ch…

If the US doesn’t defend Taiwan, it will lose all credibility of mutual defense with its pacific allies. Japan will quickly develop nuclear weapons. That is not an outcome Washington wants.

Is this an outcome desirable for any Western power? Does Germany want Japan to be forced to go nuclear?

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#127

Post by Simulacra »

_ptgt wrote: post #122
Simulacra wrote: post #106

I’m actually hoping Trump formally recognizes Taiwan. That’s the real sledge hammer. In all of their negotiations with China on trade, I’m really curious if that has come up as a threat.

Really, I'm not entirely sure why the G-8, the G-20, or even just EU + US + Japan + SK doesn't just do this as a group. It's not like China has a feasible retaliation option if they did, and it's certainly not going to retreat back to pre-1980 style isolation.

SK will never do it because it might destroy the progress on NoKo. Japan would, EU probably not. Germany might, U.K. won't until EU exit deals are done, Canada might, Australia won't, not in their interest. It'd be interesting!

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#128

Post by sonnyblarney »

Leary wrote: post #69
sonnyblarney wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. A) Cuba w/Soviets pointed nuclear missiles at the US. Iran's government perpetually declares they want to destroy the US. that's a tad offside compared to 'listing Taiwan as a country'. B) The US very very rarely controls where it's citizens can go. The moral/relative arguments used by the pro/defend China camp are tiring.

Why does the US still embargo Cuba when it's no longer a military threat? Do you think that Cubans in Florida play an outsized role in US politics?

"Why does the US still embargo Cuba when it's no longer a military threat? Do you think that Cubans in Florida play an outsized role in US politics?"

That's complicated but the Cuban regime is still to this day fairly totalitarian and are openly hostile to the US, which is not some little diplomatic thing.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#129

Post by jonathankoren »

Retric wrote: post #124
jonathankoren wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It had a military advantage. It doesn’t anymore.[0] Taiwan has not been sold modern equipment, while China has increased military spending and operational capability. Being an island, Taiwan always had to rely on holding off an invading force for as long as possible. This historically meant until the US Navy could reinforce its defenses. Now with China’s anti access area denial strategy, this is becoming a less certa…

China has nuclear weapons, so in terms of total war the direct outcome is not in question. The issue is Taiwan is capable of putting up enough of a fight to make it loud internationally and painful domestically. The population does not want to join a poorly run country with 1/4th it’s per capita GDP. It would be able to retaliate and hit major Chinease cities making it an extremely expensive war etc etc. And after th…

Honestly. I don’t know where you’re getting your information. Given your out of date information, and a cavalier toss about using nuclear weapons, I don’t think you’re nearly as well informed as you think you are.

FYI: China has a no-first use policy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_weapons_of_mass_dest...

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#130

Post by tepidandroid »

h4b4n3r0 wrote: post #87
tepidandroid wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, granted, China won’t agonize about collateral damage the way we do Please qualify this statement.

What’s there to qualify? You think they’ll worry as much about civilian casualties or use precision weapons?

It's funny because the situation you speak of with China is purely hypothetical while there are plenty (too many to count, really) modern day examples of the US military striking civilians all around the world.

But hey, at least America has the decency to agonise over it, right? Very civilised indeed.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._...

Post reply on HN