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HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

hud.gov

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Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#441

Post by astura »

LanceH wrote: post #342

So if I get a radio license and then broadcast an illegal ad, it's the FCC's fault. Why is everyone trying so hard to turn facebook (and google, twitter, etc...) into a filter on everything we say? When facebook gets held responsible for all content in all jurisdiction it will err on the side of proscription. It was only about 10 years ago that many now acceptable (mandatory even) progressive positions were not in fa…

They are enforcing this part of the FHA (emphasis mine):

>(c) To make, print, or publish, or cause to be made, printed, or published any notice, statement, or advertisement, with respect to the sale or rental of a dwelling that indicates any preference, limitation, or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin, or an intention to make any such preference, limitation, or discrimination.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#442

Post by BurningFrog »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #425
Pyxl101 wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about: it’s the responsibility of people posting ads on Facebook to follow the laws that apply to them. I don’t see why it’s Facebook’s responsibility to police advertising for housing and control how it’s targeted. If advertisers use illegal targeting then that should be on them.

The people publishing these ads are literally paying Facebook to do so. IANAL but as far as I know it's not legal to profit off illegal activity. Facebook are, themselves, breaking the law here.

What law specifically makes it illegal "to profit off illegal activity"?

That sounds incredibly broad and impossible to to avoid.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#443

Post by maym86 »

Faark wrote: post #430
Pyxl101 wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about: it’s the responsibility of people posting ads on Facebook to follow the laws that apply to them. I don’t see why it’s Facebook’s responsibility to police advertising for housing and control how it’s targeted. If advertisers use illegal targeting then that should be on them.

Why does it always have to be either-or. Can't we all agree that Facebook also has some responsibility to prevent abuse? I'm not saying they have to make sure no one can ever break a law using their platform. But once they become aware people are abusing it to do so, how can you say it's fine for them to ignore it. This seems to be the case, as far as i understand that filing. That's how you end with government havin…

Exactly, whichever is most effective. The aim of the law is primarily to protect against descrimination, not to blame a certain party. Both the publishers and the buyers are at fault but whichever changes get the problem fixed seems the best way to go.

Getting Facebook to disable some targeting option seems like a much easier route than going after each ad buyer. Targeting the publisher makes sense because they are in the best position to enforce policies on their platform and stop the descriminatory practice at a larger scale.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#444

Post by shard972 »

LanceH wrote: post #342

So if I get a radio license and then broadcast an illegal ad, it's the FCC's fault. Why is everyone trying so hard to turn facebook (and google, twitter, etc...) into a filter on everything we say? When facebook gets held responsible for all content in all jurisdiction it will err on the side of proscription. It was only about 10 years ago that many now acceptable (mandatory even) progressive positions were not in fa…

> Why is everyone trying so hard to turn facebook (and google, twitter, etc...) into a filter on everything we say?

Because they are not utility companies and have taken upon themselves to filter results so they gave up safe harbour.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#445

Post by phy6 »

scarface74 wrote: post #339
kartan wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you had a building in an area that catered to people speaking a minority language (5%) of the population; can you target speakers of that language or do you have to spend 20x? If I understand correctly, your argument is that optimizing cost goes against making fairness for all its citizens. So, it is a matter of priority. What is more important "fairness and justice" or "cost reduction"?

You can target whoever you want to in traditional media. With traditional media for instance, you can target off campus housing to a majority White college,but there is no way that you can stop a minority from seeing the ads. With FB, you could target an ad to people who go to that school who are of certain race. ( https://www.technologyreview.com/the-download/609543/faceboo... ) This is specifically not allowed by t…

Devils advocate here, but what if facebook had an Opt-In, where users can allow the features they've entered to limit the ads shown to them? What if I only want ads (from food to housing) in Spanish or Chinese? Can my preference as an individual override having to see ads that I don't want to see?

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#446

Post by shard972 »

vkou wrote: post #435
int_19h wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Pastafarians are just as much a protected class as Catholics, Jains and Druze. Only if they can demonstrate that their religious beliefs are sincere. There have been some court cases along these lines already.

Nobody asks a Christian to confirm that their beliefs are sincere, and that they aren't just pretending to believe in God, for the social benefits it brings.

Have you been watching US politics in the last few years?

At this point people just seem to make the assumption that people like donald trump are just lying about their faith as if it's a completely normal thing to assert about someone.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#447

Post by astura »

throwaway76543 wrote: post #409
thomastjeffery wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your metaphor is broken: It's more like if you own a radio station, and play user-contributed ads, you are liable for the illegal ads. It's not a very good metaphor, because no radio station simply publishes user-contributed content.

It's a strictly incorrect metaphor. Radio stations aren't liable in this scenario. Neither are newspapers with illegal personal ads for discriminatory housing. There's no way they can be liable because they can't know if the ads are illegal or not. The legality of a given ad depends on many factors not always present in the ad itself -- such as whether the landlord lives in one of the units. All of the above selectio…

>Neither are newspapers with illegal personal ads for discriminatory housing.

Yes they are!

The FHA specifically applies to housing ads!

>The legality of a given ad depends on many factors not always present in the ad itself -- such as whether the landlord lives in one of the units. All of the above selection criteria are perfectly OK to filter by if a landlord occupies a unit in a building with less than 4 units.

No, discriminatory ads are illegal (other than sex in a roommate situation) even though discrimination in selection is legal in some cases.

>It's also legal to advertise for other criteria like race in these cases -- though it's not socially acceptable

No, it's not legal.

If you post a housing ad on Craigslist, they tell you all this.

https://www.craigslist.org/about/FHA

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#448

Post by astura »

chickenfries wrote: post #421
LanceH wrote: post #342

So if I get a radio license and then broadcast an illegal ad, it's the FCC's fault. Why is everyone trying so hard to turn facebook (and google, twitter, etc...) into a filter on everything we say? When facebook gets held responsible for all content in all jurisdiction it will err on the side of proscription. It was only about 10 years ago that many now acceptable (mandatory even) progressive positions were not in fa…

> By the way, if these ads are illegal and conducted through facebook, how easy is it for the FHA to look up who is responsible and go after them. You say that like there is a clear, deterministic way to audit how Facebook ads are being targeted? I do not think you understand how ad trafficking on Facebook works. How would the FHA determine that an ad was only being served to white people? Say you see and ad being se…

Plus we don't know if FHA is going after ad buyers as part of this investigation...

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#449

Post by jimnotgym »

pertsix wrote: post #200
jimnotgym wrote: post #184

Can anyone tell me what kind of penalty Facebook could face for this? Are we talking a) A token fine b) A fine large enough that it sees investors taking action against the management c) A fine that is an existential threat to Facebook d) Jail time for executives e) Forced closure I just wonder if anyone can suggest how serious this could be if they are found to be I the wrong?

Just a small fine and remedial action to resolve the violation. This also happens to traditional businesses.

So I guess it might turn out to have been ap good business decision to ignore the law?

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#450

Post by [deleted] »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #282
skywhopper wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point, though, which is not that the advertisers can target the models in the ads, but so they can choose _not_ to show ads to "undesireable" people, like people with kids, or of a certain ethnicity or religion. This sort of practice is an extremely pervasive problem that has led to enormous amounts of systemic inequality.

What is the problem with not showing rental ads to people with kids? If landlord does not want to rent out to people with kids - I (as a parent with kids) do NOT want to see that ad. How forcing landlord to advertise to categories they do not want to serve -- would help to anybody?

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