HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook • Hacker News Board

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#421

Post by chickenfries » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 4:27 AM UTC

LanceH wrote: post #342

So if I get a radio license and then broadcast an illegal ad, it's the FCC's fault. Why is everyone trying so hard to turn facebook (and google, twitter, etc...) into a filter on everything we say? When facebook gets held responsible for all content in all jurisdiction it will err on the side of proscription. It was only about 10 years ago that many now acceptable (mandatory even) progressive positions were not in fa…

> By the way, if these ads are illegal and conducted through facebook, how easy is it for the FHA to look up who is responsible and go after them.

You say that like there is a clear, deterministic way to audit how Facebook ads are being targeted? I do not think you understand how ad trafficking on Facebook works.

How would the FHA determine that an ad was only being served to white people? Say you see and ad being served and you want to check if it is also being served to a black facebook user. You create a burner account. But now your Facebook feed isn't showing that ad anymore. Is it because of targeting, or is it because Facebook has other ad inventory that they want to show you? What if the inventory of the ad has been exhausted? I could be wrong, but it seems literally impossible to audit Facebook ads without access to Facebook's internals.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#422

Post by Paul-ish » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 4:28 AM UTC

google_censors wrote: post #17

IBM wrote: post #4

Here's the ProPublica stories that led to this https://www.propublica.org/article/facebook-lets-advertisers... https://www.propublica.org/article/facebook-advertising-disc...

ProPublica really did an amazing job of sticking with this, considering that HUD knew what was happening and still dropped the investigation in 2016.

ProPublica does some really good investigative reporting. They are the first ones on the scene with high quality reporting on a lot of current issues. I have donated to them in the past.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#423

Post by Pyxl101 » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 4:32 AM UTC

mcny wrote: post #408

jrockway wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I agree. If someone buys a radio to transmit illegally, the advertising platform they viewed the ad for the radio on isn't liable, nor is the place they bought it from, nor is the manufacturer or importer. (There is quite the controversy around people buying Baofeng radios to transmit illegally. Amazon is happy to sell you one, no questions asked.) This extends to many areas. Gun manufacturers aren't lia…

I can agree with you if the ad network publishes a transparency report that is publicly available and includes all ad activity on its network. I doubt anyone will agree to this. They'll cite privacy and security and blah blah. Just to be clear, we're talking about targeted advertising. I don't know how we can fix this issue. Maybe Facebook can ask tell type of an ad something is?

How about: it’s the responsibility of people posting ads on Facebook to follow the laws that apply to them.

I don’t see why it’s Facebook’s responsibility to police advertising for housing and control how it’s targeted. If advertisers use illegal targeting then that should be on them.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#424

Post by opnitro » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 4:44 AM UTC

sizzle wrote: post #144

noobermin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Down the the literal words "red line"[0]. For, I suppose young or otherwise ignorant people, here: [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

Wow this is a despicable practice, thanks for sharing.

And its effects are still in place today. Look at Baltimore, superimpose the old redlines on, and look at property values/average income.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#425

Post by jakelazaroff » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 5:03 AM UTC

Pyxl101 wrote: post #423

mcny wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can agree with you if the ad network publishes a transparency report that is publicly available and includes all ad activity on its network. I doubt anyone will agree to this. They'll cite privacy and security and blah blah. Just to be clear, we're talking about targeted advertising. I don't know how we can fix this issue. Maybe Facebook can ask tell type of an ad something is?

How about: it’s the responsibility of people posting ads on Facebook to follow the laws that apply to them. I don’t see why it’s Facebook’s responsibility to police advertising for housing and control how it’s targeted. If advertisers use illegal targeting then that should be on them.

The people publishing these ads are literally paying Facebook to do so. IANAL but as far as I know it's not legal to profit off illegal activity. Facebook are, themselves, breaking the law here.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#426

Post by unethical_ban » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 5:05 AM UTC

LanceH wrote: post #342

So if I get a radio license and then broadcast an illegal ad, it's the FCC's fault. Why is everyone trying so hard to turn facebook (and google, twitter, etc...) into a filter on everything we say? When facebook gets held responsible for all content in all jurisdiction it will err on the side of proscription. It was only about 10 years ago that many now acceptable (mandatory even) progressive positions were not in fa…

Eh. I get the idea you're going for, but this seems clear cut. Facebook through its ad platform explicitly allows targeting ads (and apparently, avoiding ads) toward people of certain genders, backgrounds, and attributes.

That may be ethical and legal if it's a nightclub or a retail product, but it's not allowed for housing. At a certain scale like Facebook, it should be incumbent on them to disable those ad filters for the ad buyers.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#427

Post by lallysingh » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 5:05 AM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #396

dsr_ wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if you get a radio license and so something illegal with it, that's your fault, and the FCC is the authority that can punish you for it. In this case, just like Facebook. Your responsibility, handed to you with the license, is to not do illegal things, even if people want to pay you money to do it. It's especially bad if you build an automated system that has options for people to do illegal things, since you are…

I'm not sure I agree. If someone buys a radio to transmit illegally, the advertising platform they viewed the ad for the radio on isn't liable, nor is the place they bought it from, nor is the manufacturer or importer. (There is quite the controversy around people buying Baofeng radios to transmit illegally. Amazon is happy to sell you one, no questions asked.) This extends to many areas. Gun manufacturers aren't lia…

Are there any lawyers in this thread, or is everyone speaking out of their asses?

Jesus, this is giving me flashbacks to /.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#428

Post by bsder » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 5:31 AM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #324

trashcan wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't reply to you cabaalis, but the difference is excluding (discriminating) versus targeting. Targeting is legal, discriminating is not. As in the Alamo Drafthouse is more than welcome to have a women's night event for a particular movie, but if they refuse men at the door solely for their gender, that is illegal. https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/alamo-drafthouse-admi...

Listen, in most cities they turn away men based on gender, or make them pay a cover, while they let well-dressed women in. That is their business model. I guess they can claim that men's attraction to women is a compelling business reason, which I believe may be an exception to the anti-discrimination laws. Similar to women-only gyms saying that women's desire to avoid men while working out is a compelling business r…

Both situations you have cited are actually probably in violation of the law.

The issue is that nobody is really going to be bothered to spend the money to haul those things into court.

If I'm willing to spend that much money, I can apply that same amount of money and wind up using it far more effectively than getting into a specific club or gym.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#429

Post by bobthepanda » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 5:34 AM UTC

j16sdiz wrote: post #397

twblalock wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook is the publisher of the ads and is responsible for obeying the law. If someone asks Facebook to publish an illegal ad, Facebook should not do it. This is not a free speech issue, or a political speech issue. Nobody is censoring progressive or conservative positions in this case. It's an issue of legality in real estate advertising under a framework of laws that were written decades ago.

The problem is: These kind of censorship of use generated content can't scale up to all jurisdiction. Maybe we should acknowledge it is impossible to make a global, legal, Facebook-like website.

It's not even the censorship of user generated content.

Facebook allows you to exclude housing ads from being shown to protected classes of people. Facebook effectively says "Do you want to hide this ad from disabled people?" All they have to do to comply with anti-discrimination laws is to not offer this kind of exclusion.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#430

Post by Faark » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 5:36 AM UTC

Pyxl101 wrote: post #423

mcny wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can agree with you if the ad network publishes a transparency report that is publicly available and includes all ad activity on its network. I doubt anyone will agree to this. They'll cite privacy and security and blah blah. Just to be clear, we're talking about targeted advertising. I don't know how we can fix this issue. Maybe Facebook can ask tell type of an ad something is?

How about: it’s the responsibility of people posting ads on Facebook to follow the laws that apply to them. I don’t see why it’s Facebook’s responsibility to police advertising for housing and control how it’s targeted. If advertisers use illegal targeting then that should be on them.

Why does it always have to be either-or. Can't we all agree that Facebook also has some responsibility to prevent abuse? I'm not saying they have to make sure no one can ever break a law using their platform. But once they become aware people are abusing it to do so, how can you say it's fine for them to ignore it. This seems to be the case, as far as i understand that filing. That's how you end with government having to impose regulation. I'd prefer Facebook willingly work with law enforcement or/and their clients to make sure forced intervention won't be necessary.