What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship? • Hacker News Board

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#161

Post by accnumnplus1 » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 8:14 PM UTC

xaranke wrote: post #109

accnumnplus1 wrote: post #87

Much mumbo jumbo in the comments. Immigration is seldom a problem anywhere. Excessive immigration is usually a problem everywhere. The coming of Britain's and Europe's immigration backlash was obvious nearly 20 years ago. Surprise, surprise, people like their culture and their homeland. Who would've thought? Something a European in London said yesterday: "We're moving outside London. I'm not a racist, but I'd at leas…

> forcing them to do things they didn't want Can you elaborate on this? As someone who just visited London, the opposite seems to be true at least in the service industry; most wait staff I encountered were non-British.

Not sure what's unclear. Some people are pro-immigration, and some are anti-immigration, and some don't give a fuck, and some are undecided. The London wait staff you encountered, and the 65+ million people you didn't encounter, the overwhelming majority of whom are not wait staff, and most of whom live outside London, are all somewhere on that spectrum of opinion. The words you selected, obviously, I think, refer to those who are anti-immigration. If you're willing, you probably don't need to be forced, right? So, unlikely I was referring to the pro-immigration people. The first words of that paragraph are "The pro-immigration groups' big mistake", which hints at the pro-immigration stance not working out too well, so clearly there's push back from people who are anti-immigration, and those are the people who have been forced to accept immigration they didn't want. And my point was something like this: http://www.longlongtimeago.com/once-upon-a-time/fables/from-... If your knowledge of the country is so entirely bankrupt I don't think you should be wading into this. Harsh, maybe, but fair.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#162

Post by ethbro » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 8:19 PM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #151

ethbro wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalism by definition involves suppressing a segment of the population (usually opposed to the unifying party and/or allied with external parties). It's ugly but true. It also happened in the United States. In Britian. In France. In Germany. In Spain. In Italy. In ancient Greece and Rome. There are lighter / harsher ways of going about it, though the appropriateness of those is also defined by the opposition's ac…

> Nationalism by definition involves suppressing a segment of the population [...] Great, but what does that have to do with my question, exactly? Were Kemalist leaders not nationalist autocrats? Or are you trying to argue that nationalism is necessary for a country to transition into a democracy?

> Or are you trying to argue that nationalism is necessary for a country to transition into a democracy?

I'd argue that nationalism is a requisite step for a diverse country, including multiple ethnic or cultural groups within its borders, to become a democracy. (And I'm sure I'm cribbing an old idea in the field here)

It seems like there's little basis for common action without a supergroup which includes, binds, and restrains all otherwise oppositional parties inside a legal framework.

I'd argue that's why uni-party "democracies" tend to be so fragile. When the party becomes the state, then opponents of the party can only be opponents of the state.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#163

Post by vilmosi » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 8:47 PM UTC

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #114

tinktank wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much easier to hate on an individual in front of you than a president, policy, regime or country (and takes less effort). The bigger grind for me is that the same countries (UK in particular) hammering citizens from those countries welcome leaders with open arms and provide them with refuge, the ability to buy sheltered properties etc. The UKG loves nothing or nobody but money, I just wish they would be upfront…

I think you can also look at things aside from money. Education and wealth also tend to correlate with individuals that are able to peacefully integrate into a society. Granted there are exceptions -- Osama Bin Laden came from a billionaire family and was well educated, but they are indeed the exceptions. By contrast people that are impoverished, have little education, and especially that may hold more extreme religi…

> For instance in Germany the numbers vary from 75%-90% of immigrants expected to be unable to find a job within 5 years

Given 12% of Germany is foreign born and the country has 3.5% unemployment, something feels off about these numbers and conclusions.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#164

Post by TangoTrotFox » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 9:33 PM UTC

vilmosi wrote: post #163

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you can also look at things aside from money. Education and wealth also tend to correlate with individuals that are able to peacefully integrate into a society. Granted there are exceptions -- Osama Bin Laden came from a billionaire family and was well educated, but they are indeed the exceptions. By contrast people that are impoverished, have little education, and especially that may hold more extreme religi…

> For instance in Germany the numbers vary from 75%-90% of immigrants expected to be unable to find a job within 5 years Given 12% of Germany is foreign born and the country has 3.5% unemployment, something feels off about these numbers and conclusions.

If somehow it was not clear, the numbers were referencing (in the case of employment) and being driven (in the case of violence) by the recent surge in refugees Germany took in. The 75% comes from Aydan Özoğuz, commissioner for integration, refugees and integration in Germany [1]. The upper end comes from recognition that they're taking an optimistic view of things. As of the start of 2017 Germany had taken in 1.2 million migrants, and from government numbers 34,000, or 2.8%, were employed, with a fair chunk of those in temp jobs. [2] Getting to 25% employment from there in 5 years is perhaps not impossible, but it's extremely optimistic.

[1] - https://www.ft.com/content/022de0a4-54f4-11e7-9fed-c19e27000...

[2] - https://www.thelocal.de/20161219/so-far-only-34000-refugees-...

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#165

Post by IkmoIkmo » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 9:34 PM UTC

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #114

tinktank wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much easier to hate on an individual in front of you than a president, policy, regime or country (and takes less effort). The bigger grind for me is that the same countries (UK in particular) hammering citizens from those countries welcome leaders with open arms and provide them with refuge, the ability to buy sheltered properties etc. The UKG loves nothing or nobody but money, I just wish they would be upfront…

I think you can also look at things aside from money. Education and wealth also tend to correlate with individuals that are able to peacefully integrate into a society. Granted there are exceptions -- Osama Bin Laden came from a billionaire family and was well educated, but they are indeed the exceptions. By contrast people that are impoverished, have little education, and especially that may hold more extreme religi…

Sure, discussing this topic is important. Let's not act like it's not discussed and researched daily, in my experience the entire narrative of migrants is completely dominated by this particular debate, we barely discuss anything else when we discuss migration. I agree the discussion isn't always objective, but if anything I find it errs on the side of over-attributing issues to ethnicity or cultural background.

A lot of the issues tend to be connected with policy today and in the past, but get attributed somehow to the ethnic of cultural background of the individual migrant. That's not an objective discussion either. Unemployment is a real issue, indeed, but not granting a work permit, not recognising foreign degrees, expecting new migrants fleeing a civil war to pay language education to the tune of many thousands of euros (e.g. the Netherlands) as part of their path to citizenship while not being allowed to work, and then exclaiming they're a net cost to society and somehow their issues aren't related to our policies, but rather their cultural background, is a myopic view of the situation as well.

Irrespective of root causes though, I'm always struck by the irony of the right saying immigrants are taking our jobs and lazy parasitic welfare receivers at the same time. Which is it?

Anyway, I'd point you to the academic literature in Western-Europe, there's been quite a lot of carefully researched studies on the economic benefits of migrants. I can't say there's much of a consensus, some see a small net benefit, some a small net loss in terms of taxpayer revenue / cost, but there's certainly no overwhelming evidence that migrants are a long-term economic issue, quite the contrary. Most economists will say we need migrants and need to invest more in integrating them into our economies, which means be more permissive rather than restrictive in granting legal status like a work permit.

Some reading on the particular case study you referenced:

https://www.dw.com/en/when-refugees-want-to-work-in-germany/...

https://www.ft.com/content/bea8507e-64cb-11e8-90c2-9563a0613...

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#166

Post by xaranke » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 9:37 PM UTC

accnumnplus1 wrote: post #161

xaranke wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> forcing them to do things they didn't want Can you elaborate on this? As someone who just visited London, the opposite seems to be true at least in the service industry; most wait staff I encountered were non-British.

Not sure what's unclear. Some people are pro-immigration, and some are anti-immigration, and some don't give a fuck, and some are undecided. The London wait staff you encountered, and the 65+ million people you didn't encounter, the overwhelming majority of whom are not wait staff, and most of whom live outside London, are all somewhere on that spectrum of opinion. The words you selected, obviously, I think, refer to…

Thanks for the clarification. I interpreted this as British people being forced into things they didn't want to do (such as menial jobs) but I realize now that you meant that they were forced into the decision of allowing immigration that as you rightly pointed out they didn't want.

Also I'm not sure if you intended your comment to be patronizing, but it does read that way. Thanks again for the clarification.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#167

Post by vilmosi » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 10:53 PM UTC

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #164

vilmosi wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance in Germany the numbers vary from 75%-90% of immigrants expected to be unable to find a job within 5 years Given 12% of Germany is foreign born and the country has 3.5% unemployment, something feels off about these numbers and conclusions.

If somehow it was not clear, the numbers were referencing (in the case of employment) and being driven (in the case of violence) by the recent surge in refugees Germany took in. The 75% comes from Aydan Özoğuz, commissioner for integration, refugees and integration in Germany [1]. The upper end comes from recognition that they're taking an optimistic view of things. As of the start of 2017 Germany had taken in 1.2 mi…

No, it's not clear, because you're talking about refugees in particular vs immigration in general. Two groups subject to very different laws and circumstances.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#168

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 11:14 PM UTC

uniqueid wrote: post #148

chrisseaton wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're loading 'democracy' up with some extra values there that aren't really part of the definition. Democracy just means governed by the people. It doesn't mean liberal, or enlightened, or progressive, or open to visitors, or anything like that. Just governed by the people. The people can be left wing or right wing, progressive or regressive, whatever.

Yes. Not every form of democracy is a liberal democracy. In a liberal democracy, some entity such as the judicial system is supposed to prevent the rest of government from tyrannizing minorities. Democracy protects the majority from a minority (ie: nobility). Liberalism protects minorities (eg: people an with unpopular philosophy, religious view, ethnicity, language) from the majority.

This again depends on a definition of "liberalism" accepted by all, but I find the term "illiberal" or "non-liberal democracy" (i.e. the opposite of a liberal democracy) to be very difficult to interpret. Is it a democracy in which people have the right to vote, but their liberties are not protected by the law? But- the right to vote is a liberty. And then again, how come people voted to have their liberties not protected by law? What are they, idiots?

In any case, I can't really recall any state etc that has gone down in history as being an "illiberal democracy"!

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#169

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 11:16 PM UTC

js2 wrote: post #120

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This raises an interesting question: what happens to a democratic society when "the will of the people" embraces principles and ideas that are profoundly anti-democratic? I mean, it's hard to find a definition of "democracy" that would satisfy everyone but, intuitively, xenophobia and open hostility to visitors who clearly mean well and are contributing to the well-being of the community (Lucas was a Cambridge alumnu…

This is indeed not a new question. The Economist is currently running a series on classical liberal values. From a piece on John Stuart Mill: > Democracy itself threatened the free exchange of ideas in a different way. Mill thought it right that ordinary people were being emancipated. But once free to make their own choices, they were liable to be taken in by prejudice or narrow appeals to self-interest. Give the wor…

[deleted]

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#170

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 11:18 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #125

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This raises an interesting question: what happens to a democratic society when "the will of the people" embraces principles and ideas that are profoundly anti-democratic? I mean, it's hard to find a definition of "democracy" that would satisfy everyone but, intuitively, xenophobia and open hostility to visitors who clearly mean well and are contributing to the well-being of the community (Lucas was a Cambridge alumnu…

Democracy doesn't mean open borders.

Historically, closed borders were associated with Socialist countries, like the USSR, that are generally not considered particularly democratic.