Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder • Hacker News Board

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#21

Post by ghaff » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 6:17 PM UTC

crispyambulance wrote: post #13

waterbear wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a troll comment, in that it asks a back-handed question, to highlight the shortcomings of a comparable example, more than the question voices honest curiosity regarding the question as it may be superficially posed. Possibly in an effort to lead the loaded question down a negative path, such that responses will lend voice to an opinion one might read between the lines. But first and foremost, no one f…

Not my intent to make a troll comment. But, yes, "the subway" in NYC does STILL smell like pee and vomit in many places and, yes, it is chaotic. That's been my impression of subways in many but not all cities. I think that it's possible to do better. I question why so many cities allow their public spaces to decay to such a low level while others seem to cherish their spaces.

I will say that the subway in NYC is not really typical of its public spaces in general these days. (Go back a few decades and both the subway and many of its public spaces like parks were much worse.) There is a fairly large homeless population and Manhattan generally is a rather dense, fast moving, and chaotic place. But parks like Central Park and Bryant Park are pretty pleasant for the most part.

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#22

Post by waterbear » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

atombender wrote: post #16

waterbear wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a troll comment, in that it asks a back-handed question, to highlight the shortcomings of a comparable example, more than the question voices honest curiosity regarding the question as it may be superficially posed. Possibly in an effort to lead the loaded question down a negative path, such that responses will lend voice to an opinion one might read between the lines. But first and foremost, no one f…

That's a weirdly long reply considering you seem to agree with the poster on everything, except that they committed the unforgivable crime of using the wrong word for the subway system, and the part about the smell. I'm in NYC, and the subways may be powerwashed now and then, but I have to side with the parent here: They do still routinely smell . Not just the stations, either. It's a common sight, even during rush h…

The subtext of my point is that if you policed the subway beyond a certain threshold, New York might cease to be attractive to the kinds of people that find New York a uniquely livable place.

It’s not so much that the bar should be higher, so much that leaving the bar as low as it is provides a signal that contrasts the range of sky high standards New York also makes possible in other ways.

Yes, the subway sucks, but New York’s tendency is to let the full scope of humanity simply exist out in the open, as is, warts and all. This is the philosophy I take away from it.

Should the world standardize a mandatory minimum quality upon public civic spaces? If we did, wouldn’t that require cracking down on deviations from the prescribed norm? Wouldn’t that drive people out, possibly sending some to a place much worse that a dirty smelly subway tunnel? The answers to these questions aren’t cut and dry.

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#23

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 9:11 PM UTC

crispyambulance wrote: post #13

waterbear wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a troll comment, in that it asks a back-handed question, to highlight the shortcomings of a comparable example, more than the question voices honest curiosity regarding the question as it may be superficially posed. Possibly in an effort to lead the loaded question down a negative path, such that responses will lend voice to an opinion one might read between the lines. But first and foremost, no one f…

Not my intent to make a troll comment. But, yes, "the subway" in NYC does STILL smell like pee and vomit in many places and, yes, it is chaotic. That's been my impression of subways in many but not all cities. I think that it's possible to do better. I question why so many cities allow their public spaces to decay to such a low level while others seem to cherish their spaces.

[deleted]

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#24

Post by waterbear » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 9:13 PM UTC

crispyambulance wrote: post #13

waterbear wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a troll comment, in that it asks a back-handed question, to highlight the shortcomings of a comparable example, more than the question voices honest curiosity regarding the question as it may be superficially posed. Possibly in an effort to lead the loaded question down a negative path, such that responses will lend voice to an opinion one might read between the lines. But first and foremost, no one f…

Not my intent to make a troll comment. But, yes, "the subway" in NYC does STILL smell like pee and vomit in many places and, yes, it is chaotic. That's been my impression of subways in many but not all cities. I think that it's possible to do better. I question why so many cities allow their public spaces to decay to such a low level while others seem to cherish their spaces.

I think aspects of the operational technology should improve, but should the subway be a brighter, more cheerful space? Of that I am uncertain...

I’d advocate for more reliable trains, in the same way I want the elevator to show up as soon as I press the button. Of course I want that instant gratification, but the atmosphere of the subway, on the other hand, I find to be a less urgent concern.

Mostly I think people are generally accepting of the fact that New York City’s subways are like an unfinished basement. It’s a moldy, musty cellar, and it’s not a destination. It’s a liminal zone.

If you want to talk about smell, consider this curiosity. One of the most irritating parts of the subway for me right now is the new cars. The bright, automated cars with the electronic conductor voice, and the light blue bench seating. [0]

These new cars have an air conditioned ventilation system miles ahead of the old cars, where you could just crack a window, and I swear to god these cars utilize an engineered odor as a crowd control mechanism. I harbor a suspicion that they radiate a strange odor on purpose so as to repel most normal people, so that no one lingers in these cars casually. It’s a unique smell. It only affects the new cars. And I only smell it inside those cars, even when they’re freshly cleaned. I suspect it’s the same tactic restaurants use [1], with artificially manufactured food aromas, but with a scent chosen to disgust.

None of the old cars smell like that. The plaform doesn’t smell like that. When the ventilation is off, and the doors are open, and the train sits in the station for 15 minutes, the new cars lose the smell. But for years, that smell has only affected the new cars. It smells like bad breath, if I were to try and describe it. Not vomit. Not urine. But more like if you lick the back of your hand first thing in the morning and smell it before it dries. That’s the closest smell. And I think it’s no accident the new cars smell like that.

[0] https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/01/26/04/3093161B000005...

[1] https://www.scentair.com

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#25

Post by bogomipz » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 10:41 PM UTC

joecool1029 wrote: post #19

bogomipz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Because half the American population supports a party that thinks public spending should be banned. So you end up with the classic 'privatise the profits, socialise the costs' setup." Except that New York and California - the locations of NYC's MTA and SF's BART are both overwhelmingly Democrat strongholds. Neither are Republican places. This is true at both the city and state level, which is where the control and…

> Neither are Republican places. This is true at both the city and state level, which is where the control and funding for these metros comes from not the federal level. Wrong about NY. Albany's government might as well be from another planet compared to NYC. They currently have a Republican controlled Senate. And it is the state-level that usually hamstrings the MTA. 2009 was a particularly bad year in which the MTA…

No I am not wrong about New York, Republicans might currently control the senate but the State Assembly in Albany has been controlled by Democrats every year since 1992[1]. And it takes both chambers to pass legislation doesn't it?

Your first link completely supports my point:

>"A plan to shrink the state budget by $2.7 billion to keep New York from going broke was passed by the Legislature on Wednesday."

That would be the same Democrat-controlled since 1992 state legislature that passed that budget plan.

Furthermore the Governor appoints 6 of the 17 seats of the MTA board. And Governor Cuomo is a Democrat from NYC(Queens.) And the the Mayor another Democrat gets to appoint 4 seats. Thats 10 of the 17, for a majority.[1] Let's also point out that New York state has had a Democratic Governor for the last 11 years as well. So those board seat decisions have been by a Democrat for over a decade now.

That certainly seems like a healthy does ofDemocrat influence doesn't it? Maybe do a little more fact checking before telling people they are wrong.

And to be clear the context of my comment was in response to the OP who was insisting that the sad state of mass transit in NYC and SF is because of Republicans and that simply not true as both parties are equally to blame. Failure to fund infrastructure is failure by government period. Reductionist partisan finger pointing is what those have failed us would like us to believe.

[1] https://ballotpedia.org/New_York_State_Legislature

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/nyregion/who-runs-new-yor...

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#26

Post by kalleboo » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 9:23 AM UTC

waterbear wrote: post #24

crispyambulance wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not my intent to make a troll comment. But, yes, "the subway" in NYC does STILL smell like pee and vomit in many places and, yes, it is chaotic. That's been my impression of subways in many but not all cities. I think that it's possible to do better. I question why so many cities allow their public spaces to decay to such a low level while others seem to cherish their spaces.

I think aspects of the operational technology should improve, but should the subway be a brighter, more cheerful space? Of that I am uncertain... I’d advocate for more reliable trains, in the same way I want the elevator to show up as soon as I press the button. Of course I want that instant gratification, but the atmosphere of the subway, on the other hand, I find to be a less urgent concern. Mostly I think people a…

As a parent, I would not enjoy having my child commuting to school in a "mouldy, musty cellar".

Stockholm doesn't have less homeless people roaming around than New York because they've been driven out by how clean everything is, it's because Sweden has a working welfare and health care system.

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#27

Post by piva00 » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 7:43 AM UTC

crispyambulance wrote: post #6

Ok, but where are the people in the photos? Even a google image search reveals photos much like on altas obscura: vast tastefully designed cavernous space dotted with but a few token humans. It seems suspiciously clean and well maintained compared to NYC metro. Floors polished, no screaming lunatics, no cracked, floors, walls, ceilings. I am willing to bet it doesn't even smell like pee and vomit? Where are the masse…

I live in Stockholm, the stations are almost always clean and tidy, rush hour doesn't look anything close to NYC metro (or any other major metro areas you might think of).

The metro is quiet, even during rush hours, people keep to themselves in their own seats, there are no cracked floors, walls or ceilings (at least on most of the stations I've been to and I think I have been to a good 70+% of them).

It doesn't smell like pee nor vomit and there isn't people shitting on the escalators (like I saw at Jamaica Station when I went to NYC for the first time, it was one of the first sights I had after leaving JFK).

Re: Stockholm’s deepest subway station is also an ecological wonder

#28

Post by atombender » Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 4:52 PM UTC

waterbear wrote: post #22

atombender wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a weirdly long reply considering you seem to agree with the poster on everything, except that they committed the unforgivable crime of using the wrong word for the subway system, and the part about the smell. I'm in NYC, and the subways may be powerwashed now and then, but I have to side with the parent here: They do still routinely smell . Not just the stations, either. It's a common sight, even during rush h…

The subtext of my point is that if you policed the subway beyond a certain threshold, New York might cease to be attractive to the kinds of people that find New York a uniquely livable place. It’s not so much that the bar should be higher, so much that leaving the bar as low as it is provides a signal that contrasts the range of sky high standards New York also makes possible in other ways. Yes, the subway sucks, but…

That's a weird metric to measure a city by. NYC is a vibrant city whose interestingness is intrinsically tied to the unique, sometimes weird blend of people inhabiting it. But tying this colourfulness to the amount of grime in the subway seems like a strawman to me. NYC isn't what it is because of smelly bums in subway cars, leaking ceilings, "showtime" kids or schizophrenic maniacs wielding knives, all of which feature heavily in the subway.

Secondly, there are plenty of cities with clean, "quality" civic spaces that are also have plenty of weirdness and colourful culture, including Berlin, Paris, Barcelona and Moscow.