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Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

cyberlaw.stanford.edu

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Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#31

Post by logicchains »

infecto wrote: post #17
maerF0x0 wrote: post #15

When technology goes well it provides tons of value and becomes invisible. Like the layers in an OS or 1000s of parts in a car for example. The complaints that life is more complex than before usually fail to compare it to the complexity of things we're accomplishing and what that could have looked like 50,500, 500 0 years ago... made up example: Communicate with someone on the other side of the planet... Now: type a…

This makes an assumption that there is value from being able to talk to someone on the other side of the planet. I am not trying to argue that it does or does not. Just that we are operating on that assumption. I could see the counter example that a simpler life could be a more fulfilling.

Clearly there is value to some people, as evidenced by them doing it.

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#32

Post by flukus »

throwawayjava wrote: post #16
hydrox24 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have been a little unfair the the argument cited. The author is not arguing for any of the modern annoyances you list. They are arguing for boredom, tedium, and for serendipity. Why are they arguing for some measure of these things? Let me quote your argumnet again: >If I didn't have house chores or a commute, then I could spend a lot more time learning new pieces of Mathematics. Or work through the rest…

Your post and my post are both full of hypotheticals, so let's stick to the core empirical claim that could prove you're more correct: > the activities you cite are so far faring badly. Putnam and Murray (Bowling Alone/Coming Apart)... There are two problems with Bowling Alone. 1. Bowling is boring; I'd rather grab a cappucino. Putnam and Murray suppose that the social institutions and conventions of 1910-1940 were a…

> Putnam and Murray suppose that the social institutions and conventions of 1910-1940 were a platonic ideal and therefore ignore the myriad of new ways that people socialize and engage in their communities.

Are the new ways the same though? Not all social experiences are equal.

I'd say bowling offers a much richer social experience than getting coffee or going to a hacker space. There is direct competition, there is teamwork, commitment and the comradery that comes with it, there are winner and losers, good days and bad days, etc. With bowling or church you will also be interacting with a much wider range of the community, it's a much less self selecting group.

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#33

Post by spynxic »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #15

When technology goes well it provides tons of value and becomes invisible. Like the layers in an OS or 1000s of parts in a car for example. The complaints that life is more complex than before usually fail to compare it to the complexity of things we're accomplishing and what that could have looked like 50,500, 500 0 years ago... made up example: Communicate with someone on the other side of the planet... Now: type a…

Note that the capabilities introduced by telephone-based technology also presented issues that were seldom entertained by the minds of people. This was also true for the car and horse VS the mere walking traveler.

Telephones/Telegrams allow for quick communication at the cost of guaranteed integrity of the information (in the case of an eavesdropper altering data in transit), at the cost of privacy and at the cost of reliability. None of these issues have to be problems faced by the users but all have the capacity to be introduced by the service providers at leisure or as a byproduct of their foresight.

Telephones, telegrams, cars, horses, houses, boats, schools and governments have all brought with them new forms of dependence -- and people have thus far been able to perform cost-benefit analysis of and bring innovation to these technologies. However, it seems that today more and more people are incapable of coming to true results when performing an analysis on the integrity of today's technologies and service providers, perhaps out of naivety -- and this is likely the product of not understanding the technology well enough to move on, to develop an alternative platform, or to properly govern one's activity on the platform to mitigate perceived risks.

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#34

Post by _bxg1 »

antidesitter wrote: post #30
_bxg1 wrote: post #20

"There’s more that matters about being human than happiness" I would go a step further and argue that happiness itself requires that friction, and can't be optimized or quantified. It's human nature to grow discontent and even depressed when given any kind of constancy for too long, no matter how "perfect". The idea that you can use social-engineering to perfect human happiness isn't just incomplete, it's fundamental…

happiness... can’t be optimized or quantified Neither of these is true in my experience. Happiness definitely can be optimized by changing your lifestyle (less stressful work, more free time, a healthy diet, regular exercise, adequate sleep, etc). To see it from the other direction, consider how events like onset of chronic pain and permanent disabilities negatively impact long-term happiness.

Obviously happiness can be increased, but it can't be solved. You can't get yourself, much less all of society, to a particular place and just say "welp, that's it, perfect happiness is achieved forever". Not with infinite resources and political power could you do this. It goes against human nature.

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#35

Post by JacobJans »

MrMember wrote: post #5
bem94 wrote: post #2

> Most people do not subscribe fully or exclusively to the ideals embedded in the smart-tech utopian vision, yet they’ll have no choice but to live by those ideals. All too true. The kinds of comment like "but they can just not use X" always appear in the context of Facebook/Google (often when they appear on HN). But that's like saying you should just "not use CCTV". I'm not a user of FB/Google/Smart Tech, it uses me…

"Smart speakers" are getting to be everywhere and it really makes me uncomfortable. Like if I book a hotel I now have to remember to check if one is installed so I can unplug/disable it. Or if I'm at someone's house I have to decide if I want to look like a tinfoil wearing loony and ask them to unplug it or just accept that everything I say gets sent to some remote server.

> everything I say gets sent to some remote server.

Why do you think everything is recorded and sent to a remote server?

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#36

Post by chj »

JacobJans wrote: post #35
MrMember wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Smart speakers" are getting to be everywhere and it really makes me uncomfortable. Like if I book a hotel I now have to remember to check if one is installed so I can unplug/disable it. Or if I'm at someone's house I have to decide if I want to look like a tinfoil wearing loony and ask them to unplug it or just accept that everything I say gets sent to some remote server.

> everything I say gets sent to some remote server. Why do you think everything is recorded and sent to a remote server?

That's a basic instinct of a HN reader. Since it's a blackbox, you have to assume the worst scenario.

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#37

Post by infectoid »

humanrebar wrote: post #27
nerdponx wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the truly sad aspects of this phenomenon is that smart speakers, in principle are totally fucking cool . That's literally Star Trek technology! You have a cheery computer you can boss around! Except now corporate greed had to shit all over it. It would be one thing if the Alexa was free... but they actually charge for the thing, and they don't even develop their own apps/skills, that's on the community.

> Except now corporate greed had to shit all over it. One of the big plot holes of the Star Trek universe is that money and bartering would ever go away (they ended up back tracking in a major way on this) or that anything like the Federation would ever be as benevolent or magnanimous as it is portrayed. That is, I don't think taking corporations or greed out of it will make the tech better. People are people, whethe…

Well, it's not exactly a plot hole as it was kinda Roddenberry's vision to show what a positive future for humans would look like. All the while exploring aspects of humanity through interactions with "alien races".

I think it's great to have future utopian stories to tell ourselves.

It's likely we'll end up somewhere in the middle but if we only listen to the bad stuff then that is all we can hope for because we can't imagaine any other state :)

Microsoft actually commissioned a bunch of authors to write some positive short stories about the future in hopes of getting people in a more positive mindset.

It's called Future Visions and you can grab it for free here: https://news.microsoft.com/futurevisions/

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#38

Post by tjr225 »

JacobJans wrote: post #35
MrMember wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Smart speakers" are getting to be everywhere and it really makes me uncomfortable. Like if I book a hotel I now have to remember to check if one is installed so I can unplug/disable it. Or if I'm at someone's house I have to decide if I want to look like a tinfoil wearing loony and ask them to unplug it or just accept that everything I say gets sent to some remote server.

> everything I say gets sent to some remote server. Why do you think everything is recorded and sent to a remote server?

Why don't you think that?

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#39

Post by goldfeld »

nerdponx wrote: post #18
MrMember wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Smart speakers" are getting to be everywhere and it really makes me uncomfortable. Like if I book a hotel I now have to remember to check if one is installed so I can unplug/disable it. Or if I'm at someone's house I have to decide if I want to look like a tinfoil wearing loony and ask them to unplug it or just accept that everything I say gets sent to some remote server.

One of the truly sad aspects of this phenomenon is that smart speakers, in principle are totally fucking cool . That's literally Star Trek technology! You have a cheery computer you can boss around! Except now corporate greed had to shit all over it. It would be one thing if the Alexa was free... but they actually charge for the thing, and they don't even develop their own apps/skills, that's on the community.

No, they're not that cool in day-to-day beyond a geeky gimmick, that's the point. Maybe it's cool in dated sci-fi, but not everyone subscribes to the idea of needing a dumb serf to boss around, much less of looking dumb bossing around a cheap circuit built by a cheaper company as if that's cooler than actually knowing your way around technology and keeping a modicum of control in one's life. Maybe I'm old school, I'll go back to vim now.

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#40

Post by wowzerz »

goldfeld wrote: post #39
nerdponx wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the truly sad aspects of this phenomenon is that smart speakers, in principle are totally fucking cool . That's literally Star Trek technology! You have a cheery computer you can boss around! Except now corporate greed had to shit all over it. It would be one thing if the Alexa was free... but they actually charge for the thing, and they don't even develop their own apps/skills, that's on the community.

No, they're not that cool in day-to-day beyond a geeky gimmick, that's the point. Maybe it's cool in dated sci-fi, but not everyone subscribes to the idea of needing a dumb serf to boss around, much less of looking dumb bossing around a cheap circuit built by a cheaper company as if that's cooler than actually knowing your way around technology and keeping a modicum of control in one's life. Maybe I'm old school, I'l…

Okay, so wait a second. Hold it right there. @nerdponx is onto something here. This is really important.

You take your fingers, and take your 100+ key keyboard, and you think about how reliable your structured articulation of codified text syntax can be, when storing files on a file system the UNIX way.

Take that same philosophy, and make that happen with spoken word, and a language that has ~65,000 words. Phrases over text files, spoken through the air, instead of written down, saved and interpretted.

If that were what these speaker/microphone combo systems were about, and they weren’t internet connected, and exclusively piping profitable surveillance data home to some corporate data center to mine for buying habits in aggregate, this would all be very different.

Anyway, the future is fucking stupid, and I hate it. I hope JavaScript bitcoin mining eventually sucks so much accidentally wasted computational energy into some quantum computer with an unterminated while loop, that it conjures a black hole and erases us all.

Just my two cents.

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