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Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

cyberlaw.stanford.edu

11–20 of 49 posts

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#11
post #9

This is such a conundrum. When I really sit down and think about all the modern tech in my life, and how much of it is a promise to make my life easier, I can't help but laugh. The modern world is far more complicated and difficult to navigate than ever before. Each new piece of tech just adds to it. Now we have to know how to navigate healthcare.gov to understand our insurance options, understand email, text, and al…

> They wouldn't have a choice of course, unless they are one of the few capable of obtaining a couple masters degrees in STEM.

That's already quite difficult given high specialization in IT. Even if you put hardware aside and take only software engineering, the difference between, say, kernel coding and the so-called "front-end development" is enormous. It literally takes years to master an ecosystem, and the complexity increases steadily just as we speak.

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#12

I think the point at the end of the article is reasonable. But the argument in the middle is a tad silly. The idea that modern annoyances (sitting in traffic, waiting in checkout lines, searching/browsing for information) are somehow essential to the human experience is super weird given that most of these things have only been around for 50ish years in their current form and less than 1,000 years in any form. If I d…

I think you have been a little unfair the the argument cited. The author is not arguing for any of the modern annoyances you list. They are arguing for boredom, tedium, and for serendipity. Why are they arguing for some measure of these things? Let me quote your argumnet again:

>If I didn't have house chores or a commute, then I could spend a lot more time learning new pieces of Mathematics. Or work through the rest of the half-finished anatomy textbook on my bookshelf. Or finally get around to building a digital simulation of a human heart. Or start a garden. Or just hang out with a coffee at the hackerspace or coffee shop or church basement.

> There are a lot of opportunities for serendipity, many ways to build grit, and infinite opportunities to socialize.

Indeed, you would technically have more time to do these things. But you would not necessarily know you want to do them, nor find the time to sit and ponder. Not if every moment has been optimised to speed you through your day and onto the next productive task.

Perhaps, you argue, we would realise such moments are important and build them into the system, leaving patches of "hard reality". But we have already begun the process, and the activities you cite are so far faring badly. Putnam and Murray (Bowling Alone/Coming Apart) have both shown how the last half century has eroded actual participation in the activities we have been freed to do more of. They also show that it is hurting us, particularly anyone who is not bright or rich.

Ultimately, we need both the time to build grit, socialise and be serendipitous, as well as the moments of frustration and boredom which allow our minds to wander to such possibilities.

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#13
post #9

This is such a conundrum. When I really sit down and think about all the modern tech in my life, and how much of it is a promise to make my life easier, I can't help but laugh. The modern world is far more complicated and difficult to navigate than ever before. Each new piece of tech just adds to it. Now we have to know how to navigate healthcare.gov to understand our insurance options, understand email, text, and al…

>The author is right that most people will effectively become automatons, mindlessly obeying the little taps and chimes of their tech-addled existence. They wouldn't have a choice of course, unless they are one of the few capable of obtaining a couple masters degrees in STEM.

A couple of masters degrees in STEM isn't going to save someone from having their serotonin spike when their phone vibrates. Being the blacksmith that forges the shackles doesn't make your wrists impervious to your own creations.

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#14
post #9

This is such a conundrum. When I really sit down and think about all the modern tech in my life, and how much of it is a promise to make my life easier, I can't help but laugh. The modern world is far more complicated and difficult to navigate than ever before. Each new piece of tech just adds to it. Now we have to know how to navigate healthcare.gov to understand our insurance options, understand email, text, and al…

I think it goes even further than that. In my day to day use of my smartphone, even, an iPhone 7, I find the experience largely unpleasant. Even what is essentially just a touch screen computer connected to the internet seems to have all sorts of unpredictable and strange reactions to my inputs. Or it will do something strange without any input at all.

I would argue that the future we have created with technology is still mostly pretty janky - and we give the tech too much credit.

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#15
When technology goes well it provides tons of value and becomes invisible. Like the layers in an OS or 1000s of parts in a car for example.

The complaints that life is more complex than before usually fail to compare it to the complexity of things we're accomplishing and what that could have looked like 50,500, 500 0 years ago...

made up example: Communicate with someone on the other side of the planet...

Now: type a message or skype, instantaneous, searchable, recorded backup...

- 50 yrs ago, make an international telephone call. Its unclear, not recorded, difficult to verify(securely) who you're talking with etc.

- 500 yrs ago, write, if you can, on some paper and send it via horses or merchants... who knows if its delivered or if an answer is coming

- 5000 yrs ago. No. You can only talk with people in your village unless you're wealthy, royal or otherwise powerful.

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#16

I think the point at the end of the article is reasonable. But the argument in the middle is a tad silly. The idea that modern annoyances (sitting in traffic, waiting in checkout lines, searching/browsing for information) are somehow essential to the human experience is super weird given that most of these things have only been around for 50ish years in their current form and less than 1,000 years in any form. If I d…

I think you have been a little unfair the the argument cited. The author is not arguing for any of the modern annoyances you list. They are arguing for boredom, tedium, and for serendipity. Why are they arguing for some measure of these things? Let me quote your argumnet again: >If I didn't have house chores or a commute, then I could spend a lot more time learning new pieces of Mathematics. Or work through the rest…

Your post and my post are both full of hypotheticals, so let's stick to the core empirical claim that could prove you're more correct:

> the activities you cite are so far faring badly. Putnam and Murray (Bowling Alone/Coming Apart)...

There are two problems with Bowling Alone.

1. Bowling is boring; I'd rather grab a cappucino.

Putnam and Murray suppose that the social institutions and conventions of 1910-1940 were a platonic ideal and therefore ignore the myriad of new ways that people socialize and engage in their communities.

To pick just one relevant example, hackerspaces only existed in a few major cities when I became interested in them 10-15 years ago. Now there's at least one in every major city as well as many in smaller communities. But hackerspaces are just an example; there are thousands of other examples of the same phenomenon: popular and thriving community forums that didn't even exist in 1910-1940.

This form of community engagement is the sort of thing that Putnam and Murray completely miss in their analysis because, for them, "community engagement" means regular contact with one of ten or so institutions they happened to have statistics for when they wrote their book.

I spend less time at church potlucks and bowling nights than my grandparents. But then, my grandparents never met friends at coffee shops or hung out at hackerspaces.

2. Far more damning, Putnam and Murray weren't even correct for the tiny subset of community engagement metrics they chose to form their best-selling "darn kids born after 1940" thesis. See e.g., Everett Lad's critique of Bowling Alone.

So not only did new forms of community engagement pop up in response to changing times and interests, but traditional forms of community engagement continued to thrive!

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#17

When technology goes well it provides tons of value and becomes invisible. Like the layers in an OS or 1000s of parts in a car for example. The complaints that life is more complex than before usually fail to compare it to the complexity of things we're accomplishing and what that could have looked like 50,500, 500 0 years ago... made up example: Communicate with someone on the other side of the planet... Now: type a…

This makes an assumption that there is value from being able to talk to someone on the other side of the planet.

I am not trying to argue that it does or does not. Just that we are operating on that assumption. I could see the counter example that a simpler life could be a more fulfilling.

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#18
post #5
post #2

> Most people do not subscribe fully or exclusively to the ideals embedded in the smart-tech utopian vision, yet they’ll have no choice but to live by those ideals. All too true. The kinds of comment like "but they can just not use X" always appear in the context of Facebook/Google (often when they appear on HN). But that's like saying you should just "not use CCTV". I'm not a user of FB/Google/Smart Tech, it uses me…

"Smart speakers" are getting to be everywhere and it really makes me uncomfortable. Like if I book a hotel I now have to remember to check if one is installed so I can unplug/disable it. Or if I'm at someone's house I have to decide if I want to look like a tinfoil wearing loony and ask them to unplug it or just accept that everything I say gets sent to some remote server.

One of the truly sad aspects of this phenomenon is that smart speakers, in principle are totally fucking cool. That's literally Star Trek technology! You have a cheery computer you can boss around! Except now corporate greed had to shit all over it.

It would be one thing if the Alexa was free... but they actually charge for the thing, and they don't even develop their own apps/skills, that's on the community.

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have been a little unfair the the argument cited. The author is not arguing for any of the modern annoyances you list. They are arguing for boredom, tedium, and for serendipity. Why are they arguing for some measure of these things? Let me quote your argumnet again: >If I didn't have house chores or a commute, then I could spend a lot more time learning new pieces of Mathematics. Or work through the rest…

Your post and my post are both full of hypotheticals, so let's stick to the core empirical claim that could prove you're more correct: > the activities you cite are so far faring badly. Putnam and Murray (Bowling Alone/Coming Apart)... There are two problems with Bowling Alone. 1. Bowling is boring; I'd rather grab a cappucino. Putnam and Murray suppose that the social institutions and conventions of 1910-1940 were a…

I agree with your contention that the examples of modern annoyances chosen by the author are not hidden pinnacles of humanness to be preserved at all costs.

However, I think the author's deeper point still stands, despite his poor support for the argument.

Can we not agree that the _je ne sais quoi_ of humanness is threatened, on some level, by modernity?

It is a very difficult empirical case to make, as you have made clear with your totally acceptable critique of _Bowling Alone_.

But, in my view, supporting the claim that our "humanness" is under assault is not really where we should be focusing our energies here... It is much more interesting to discuss how we can preserve the "old good" things from our past, while somehow enabling ourselves to take advantage of the "new good" things unlocked by technological progress without being undone in the process.

I'm tired of all these jeremiads bewailing the loss of all that we hold dear, ripped from our grasp by inhuman techno-corporate-behemoths.

Not sure what the roadmap for a more productive discussion is--but perhaps first we must define exactly what it is we valued from our pre-industrial, supposedly unsullied past.

I agree with you that we must be very critical any rose-tinted "back in my day it was better" line of inquiry, but I do believe that there are things worth preserving. Another important question to answer is, why are those things valuable to us? Is it because they titillate our neurons in just the right way? Or is there something more there?

Then we need to figure out how to implement our technological progress in a way that fosters these values, rather than undermining them.

PS: above-mentioned link to Ladd's critique of _Bowling Alone_: https://www.csmonitor.com/1999/0301/p9s1.html

Re: Algorithm and Blues: The Tyranny of the Coming Smart-Tech Utopia

#20
"There’s more that matters about being human than happiness"

I would go a step further and argue that happiness itself requires that friction, and can't be optimized or quantified. It's human nature to grow discontent and even depressed when given any kind of constancy for too long, no matter how "perfect". The idea that you can use social-engineering to perfect human happiness isn't just incomplete, it's fundamentally broken.

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