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Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

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Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#61

Post by europeanperson »

I've said it in another thread, and I will say it again: "the majority of the world sees the U.S. as the world's biggest threat to world peace, yet I don't see anybody on Hacker News claiming companies shouldn't do business with the U.S. Since the war in Iraq, can we think of something that the Chinese government has done that is worse? I disagree strongly with the notion that the Chinese government's influence on the world is somehow worse than the influence of the U.S. I do think there is something to be said about boycotting governments that abuse human rights, but I think it is hypocritical to think that somehow that doesn't apply to the U.S."

If you are against doing business in China because they compete with your own country, then say so. Don't try to disguise it as some sort of moral compass and then exempt the U.S. which has waged unjustified wars for decades that have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#62

Post by pimmen »

yeukhon wrote: post #8

EFF complains about this ONLY because EFF partnered with Google https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/work-eff-summer-apply-... . You don't hear Mozilla or Apple complaining about Google returning to China though. I am not really sure why Google matters in China and how this matters to anyone. You enter someone's country and you ought to obey the local laws there. Just as Chinese companies entering U.S. need to respe…

> You enter someone's country and you ought to obey the local laws there.

There are plenty of human rights activists, reporters and publishers in China who have been imprisoned without a trial. Would you say the same thing to them?

And are you sure that noone in history had to challenge local laws in your own country for your right to voice your own opinion like this?

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#63

Post by client4 »

robjan wrote: post #39
est wrote: post #2

Fact 1: Google only pulled search business out of China. adsense/adwords/maps works fine in China Fact 2: Search engines are more and more irrelevant these days. All interesting new content are either from Weibo or Wechat (or other closed garden) Fact 3: all reports about "Google returning to China" are based solely on the "Intercept report"[1] as source. I suggest everyone take a look at it. I think there's a huge m…

Maps does not work in China. Source: in China

Maps work better in China than Japan. Source, living in Shanghai and Beijing with occasional Japan trips got a year.

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#64

Post by tomc1985 »

aviv wrote: post #48
threatofrain wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly? Scarface is saying that the refusal to promote a message is also part of free speech, and an easier case than the refusal to serve gay customers. At best your response is to ask those who have sympathy towards gay people, "Why don't you get angry at laws which suggest that businesses have to serve gay people, even if their religious beliefs tell them that homosexuality is a sin?" I also wouldn't be surprised…

He represents free speech. He is just one of several conservative leaning voices silenced by Big Tech in recent months. One of the most troubling aspects of the Alex Jones ban is the obvious coordination among Apple, Facebook, YouTube and others to completely take him off their platforms at the exact same time. How this doesn't bother HN is crazy. It's truly crazy how YouTube takes down Alex Jones easily but ElsaGate…

If FANG were government institutions then yes I think a lot of the people here would be alarmed. But they aren't -- they are private companies, who can suppress or promote whatever they want. It doesn't matter whether or not you or I or anyone else likes it, that's just how it is.

The courts have affirmed corporate personhood, and their resulting freedom of speech, and in this case they are free to suppress things they host on their platform.

There is an interesting legal argument I heard recently that says that if you operate a private space much in the way as if it were a public space (like a privately-owned park open to the public) then there is a sliding scale regarding how much that space is legally considered 'public' (regardless of ownership), for the purposes of law enforcement, or whatever else (like being a venue for protected free speech). I wonder if, at some point, Google/YouTube et al could possibly be seen under such a lens. Maybe then you could argue private takesdowns are a violation of free speech.

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#65

Post by dnomad »

knuththetruth wrote: post #49
est wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, it's good to know the same two people are verified again and again. I do really appreciate those links. Are there any further development besides the initial "Intercept report" details? My best guess is that Google China somehow partnered with a major Android ROM developer in China to provide a search component in Android system, some kind of integration with "Custom Search API". It's nothing like the full sear…

It’s odd that you’re willing to so vehemently question sourced reporting, while simultaneously postulating, without any evidence, that a very narrow, favorable to Google scenario is likely to be the case.

Forgive us if we completely disregard anonymous sources. This sort of "reporting" is not based on any kind evidence or actual investigation. It is pure gossip.

At this point we know only that there are people inside Google who are, for various reasons, leaking information to the press. We have no direct quotes from these anonymous sources nor any information about who they might be. For all we know they could be janitors.

What's so funny is that I remember the days when Greenwald used to rage daily against the media for using anonymous sources. Now this has become the primary type of "reporting" that the Intercept trucks in.

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#67

Post by TangoTrotFox »

threatofrain wrote: post #21
aviv wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And look at the uproar that the bakery caused with the constant mainstream news coverage back then. But now? Silence, and if not silence, total justification and questioning why Big Tech didn't do it sooner.

Exactly? Scarface is saying that the refusal to promote a message is also part of free speech, and an easier case than the refusal to serve gay customers. At best your response is to ask those who have sympathy towards gay people, "Why don't you get angry at laws which suggest that businesses have to serve gay people, even if their religious beliefs tell them that homosexuality is a sin?" I also wouldn't be surprised…

That's a typical but significant misrepresentation of the bakery case. The baker was/is completely willing to serve gay individuals in any capacity aside from creating customized cakes for gay weddings. He would have been fine with the gay couple buying absolutely anything in the store, including pre-made cakes that could be used for a wedding, and he also offered to create customized goodies for any other service including wedding showers -- but the one thing he would not make is the centerpiece cake for the wedding itself as he felt it would require him to personally 'endorse' their marriage with what he viewed as customized art, something the price tags these cakes carry tends to validate.

Most people do not intuitively see wedding cakes as art, but you can see the issue much more clearly if you view him as a literal artist. An artist refusing to sell a print of one of his pieces to a gay individual because they were gay is illegal and absurd. An artist refusing a contract because he felt the piece requested would endorse homosexuality, which went against his personal views - is not unreasonable.

---

As for companies positioning themselves for the future, I think you might be surprised if you decided to do some searching for information on the aggregate views of generation z. Political trends in the US are on a pendulum. One side goes batshit insane in one direction which results in the growth of a major counter culture which eventually reaches a happy medium but then they themselves start to go batshit insane in the other direction, breeding what would now be seen as a counter-counter-culture to people who have lived long enough. This repeats seemingly to no end. The 60s created the 80s which created the 2000s which is now creating the 2020s. Probably not coincidentally that 20 years is just about the length of time it takes for a new generation to come into its own. Oh well, we can all at least look forward to the 2030s - Mars and political sanity!

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#68

Post by Leary »

kodablah wrote: post #20

It is simply not possible to both cooperate with the Chinese (or, to a lesser extent, any other) government against its citizens and remain transparent. Part of this type of cooperation includes a requirement by the government for opacity. This is easier for less-principled and/or more closed companies. You can only not-cooperate transparently (and even then, only sometimes). The real problem is you can't have a we'l…

Yes! Thank you for writing this. I bought Baidu stocks after the dip and haven't done very well lately. Perhaps with posts like this we can stop Google from infiltrating China.

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#69

Post by dnomad »

knuththetruth wrote: post #26
est wrote: post #2

Fact 1: Google only pulled search business out of China. adsense/adwords/maps works fine in China Fact 2: Search engines are more and more irrelevant these days. All interesting new content are either from Weibo or Wechat (or other closed garden) Fact 3: all reports about "Google returning to China" are based solely on the "Intercept report"[1] as source. I suggest everyone take a look at it. I think there's a huge m…

Fact 5: The Chinese Government, which Google will collaborate with to operate in China, has upwards of two million Uighurs and Muslim minorities in what the UN calls a “massive internment camp.” Uighurs are also reported to be being detained upon re-entry into the country, with some then “dying in custody” https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-rights-un/u-n-says-...

Isn't it strange how in just a few days we go from "credible reports" of 1 million individuals to a fact of two million people in one "massive" "camp"?

What's going to happen by Monday?

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#70

Post by Leary »

client4 wrote: post #66

Is it just me, or on all of the recent China articles is there been a noticeable increase in newly-created accounts with "quality of local newspaper comment sections" comments? I'm not super pro China, but there is a lot of FUD and poor commenting going on.

r u suggesting that we are the target of a Russian influence campaign?
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