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Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

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Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#21
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's no "assault on free speech". The right of free speech doesn't mean that private corporations have to be a platform for it. The right embraced private corporations having "religious and moral rights" with the cake shop and Hobby Lobby cases. This is the other side of the coin.

Exactly. And look at the uproar that the bakery caused with the constant mainstream news coverage back then. But now? Silence, and if not silence, total justification and questioning why Big Tech didn't do it sooner.

Exactly? Scarface is saying that the refusal to promote a message is also part of free speech, and an easier case than the refusal to serve gay customers. At best your response is to ask those who have sympathy towards gay people, "Why don't you get angry at laws which suggest that businesses have to serve gay people, even if their religious beliefs tell them that homosexuality is a sin?"

I also wouldn't be surprised if the thinking behind so many Fortune 500 companies is at least due to a calculation of brand posture going into the future. A lot of the companies being discussed at the moment are social media companies, and youth are the ones who can drive a MySpace event.

I also must ask for elaboration as to the Alex Jones brand of conservatism -- does it involve a narrative of white extinction and undeserving blacks? False flag stories about the Sandy Hook shooting? Does he represent American conservatism?

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#22
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did the mainstream right start openly embracing racist as thier people outside of the South? I could never see any former Republican President or leadership in the modern era support someone like Alex Jones. Alex Jones podcast was not "banned" from Apple's platform. Apple never hosted either the media or the RSS metadata. Anyone who wants to listen to the podcast can go on Google do a search find the feed subscr…

That's not my point. I don't like or listen to the guy, but your reaction shows precisely why they chose him. Who is next? If they can take down someone as vocal as Alex Jones, they can take down anyone.

Let this be a lesson to us all. If you blatantly violate terms of service, there's no amount of harassing families of school shooting victims that will get your platform back.

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#24
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did the mainstream right start openly embracing racist as thier people outside of the South? I could never see any former Republican President or leadership in the modern era support someone like Alex Jones. Alex Jones podcast was not "banned" from Apple's platform. Apple never hosted either the media or the RSS metadata. Anyone who wants to listen to the podcast can go on Google do a search find the feed subscr…

That's not my point. I don't like or listen to the guy, but your reaction shows precisely why they chose him. Who is next? If they can take down someone as vocal as Alex Jones, they can take down anyone.

Conservatives are always embracing the free market. If there were a market for his ideas, he should have no trouble finding funding, advertising, etc.

If his ideas really are that popular, he should be able to create the conservative versions of Twitter, Facebook, etc. All of the FAANG companies started out competing against entrenched incumbents by offering a service they didn't. Why can't he do the same?

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#25
post #8

EFF complains about this ONLY because EFF partnered with Google https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/work-eff-summer-apply-... . You don't hear Mozilla or Apple complaining about Google returning to China though. I am not really sure why Google matters in China and how this matters to anyone. You enter someone's country and you ought to obey the local laws there. Just as Chinese companies entering U.S. need to respe…

In fact, SV has begun to bring Chinese-style censorship to the US.

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#26
post #2

Fact 1: Google only pulled search business out of China. adsense/adwords/maps works fine in China Fact 2: Search engines are more and more irrelevant these days. All interesting new content are either from Weibo or Wechat (or other closed garden) Fact 3: all reports about "Google returning to China" are based solely on the "Intercept report"[1] as source. I suggest everyone take a look at it. I think there's a huge m…

Fact 5: The Chinese Government, which Google will collaborate with to operate in China, has upwards of two million Uighurs and Muslim minorities in what the UN calls a “massive internment camp.” Uighurs are also reported to be being detained upon re-entry into the country, with some then “dying in custody”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-rights-un/u-n-says-...

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#27
post #8

EFF complains about this ONLY because EFF partnered with Google https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/work-eff-summer-apply-... . You don't hear Mozilla or Apple complaining about Google returning to China though. I am not really sure why Google matters in China and how this matters to anyone. You enter someone's country and you ought to obey the local laws there. Just as Chinese companies entering U.S. need to respe…

> I am not really sure why Google matters in China and how this matters to anyone. You enter someone's country and you ought to obey the local laws there. Just as Chinese companies entering U.S. need to respect U.S. laws.

That assumes a certain moral equivalency between local laws that just isn't the case. Would you say the same thing about the Nuremberg Laws?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_legislation_in_pre...

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#28
I'm an American, own and operate two Chinese companies (an operations/engineering consulting company and a factory). I was here when Google left.

From the end user's viewpoint, internet censorship has only become more strict. While VPN access has never been totally unavailable, it can be painful to use. I've changed my browsing habits to settle for using Bing more than I otherwise would have. At the same time, I'm thankful at least Bing is here. At least, Bing provides reasonable access to search results for technical queries in English. Like, returning helpful answers to Stack Overflow programming questions. Baidu is useless for this.

From a business point of view, to give you some sense of my perspective. I'm not operating with corporate deep pocket money, own 100% of my company, bootstrapped, sales between $1-$3M USD/year for past five years. At this point, I guess I fit into a class of entrepreneur best labeled "multi-national small business owner". It is a tough segment to try to operate in. It requres a complex business structure with entities in several countries (now in China, Hong Kong, and USA). Lots of filings and tax issues to deal with. Being an American makes it even harder with rules and regulations.

So I read this article from the viewpoint of my own biases and experiences (as we all do).

What struck me was, the EFF takes a pain to focus on "the public, Google’s users, and Google’s employees". Further, they ask - "What sacrifices will Google make to its own operating practices in order to enter the Chinese market? Will it have to comply with China’s internal strict regulations, and how will these compromises affect its offerings outside of China?"

From my view, first let me just be frank, China does not give a fuck about Google. If Google comes to China, it will not change China's policy in any way. If Google does not come to China, it will have zero impact on China's policy, in any area.

So to address the first question EFF raises. Yes, with every company that comes to China, the company must adapt to China, not the other way around. There will be many sacrifices and changes to operating practices. As there are for every company that enters China.

For the second question. Yes, to compete here in China, Google will have to adapt to China's strict regulations regarding the things they do not want to be discussed. But, China is well aware of how to operate with separate sets of rules. Hell, they invented "One country, two systems" by integrating Hong Kong. It will not affect Google's offerings outside of China. But while inside their walls, you got to follow their rules.

Last, Google has direct competitors that are in China. This EFF article makes no mention of "shareholders" or "business". But, Google has the responsibility to their shareholders to enter new markets to compete where there is a void. It is not Google's responsibility to fight China. As far as human rights, censorship, etc, that is not Googles fight either, but one thing is certain, choosing to avoid China cannot help things in the future. If you are not here, physically inside China operating, there is zero chance you can have an impact, should the time ever arise.

Net/net. I think it is better for all parties to have Google back in China.

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#29
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And look at the uproar that the bakery caused with the constant mainstream news coverage back then. But now? Silence, and if not silence, total justification and questioning why Big Tech didn't do it sooner.

Exactly? Scarface is saying that the refusal to promote a message is also part of free speech, and an easier case than the refusal to serve gay customers. At best your response is to ask those who have sympathy towards gay people, "Why don't you get angry at laws which suggest that businesses have to serve gay people, even if their religious beliefs tell them that homosexuality is a sin?" I also wouldn't be surprised…

The baker comparison doesn't work. You don't see one guy or even three companies in Colorado controlling 99% of the messages going on cakes, globally, like you do with social media speech on Google/Facebook/Twitter platforms in California. Whether you like it or not, they are monopolies who are coordinating attacks on conservatives by stifling speech that is by and large perfectly legal in the US. Very concerning.

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#30

I'm an American, own and operate two Chinese companies (an operations/engineering consulting company and a factory). I was here when Google left. From the end user's viewpoint, internet censorship has only become more strict. While VPN access has never been totally unavailable, it can be painful to use. I've changed my browsing habits to settle for using Bing more than I otherwise would have. At the same time, I'm th…

> It will not affect Google's offerings outside of China. But while inside their walls, you got to follow their rules.

No. Having operations in China gives the Chinese government leverage over you, which they're starting to use to pressure companies to toe their line even outside of the PRC. For examples, see the recent articles regarding airline's treatment of Taiwan on their websites [1]. See also how Mercedes-Benz was forced to apologize for posting a Dalai Lama quote on Instagram [2], and how a Marriott employee was fired after he "liked" a post about Tibetan independence [3]. The latter two happened despite both websites being blocked in China. Years ago, Yahoo also handed the Chinese government information revealing the identities of two Chinese pro-democracy activists, which resulted in their imprisonment [4].

Maybe you were too small for them to bother with, but I'm not sure the PRC could resist the temptation of using the leverage they'd have over a Google with significant Chinese operations. After all, Google is the gatekeeper of information in the West (Google Search), and one of the main ways Westerners and dissidents communicate (Gmail).

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-airlines-china/u-s-ai...

[2] https://www.dw.com/en/mercedes-bows-to-chinese-pressure-afte...

[3] https://www.wsj.com/articles/marriott-employee-roy-jones-hit...

[4] https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3862513&page=1

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