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Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

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Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#101

Post by Gibbon1 »

lapinot wrote: post #60
ams6110 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It all points to public healthcare where there is governance at a political level and not profit level. Might want to consider that political abuse of psychiatric diagnoses to get opponents or agitators involuntarily committed to asylums or hospitals is not exactly unheard of.

This is plain stupid. A for-profit hospital will benefit from abusing any patient while a political abuse only targets a small portion of opponents. And political abuse is an issue of the counter-powers in your political system, not of the way hospitals work: a functional political system will have functional public hospitals, but a functional economy will have private hospitals whose interests diverge substantially…

> This is plain stupid.

Not stupid you are just young and ill informed.

> While on a phone call with Helen Thomas about the Watergate break-in, King pulled the phone cord from the wall. She was held against her will in a California hotel room and forcefully sedated by a psychiatrist after a physical struggle with five men that left her needing stitches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Mitchell

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#103

Post by dooglius »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #92
briandear wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, guardianship or consevatorship (when the person is over 18,) imparts a fiduciary duty on the person/organization to provide for the needs of their ward. So the ability of Mayo to “financially benefit” could be subject to debate. They assume financial responsibility with the assumption of guardianship. In terms of Mayo, they are one of the best hospitals in the world, current situation notwithstanding. It isn…

> xcept Alfie was terminal and had a minimal chance of survival and the U.K. government still refused to allow him to leave the U.K. Permission to take him abroad was denied by the UK courts, not the UK government.

In what sense are the courts not part of the goverment? It’s not like they are private, are they?

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#104

Post by fsloth »

outside1234 wrote: post #3
burfog wrote: post #2

There is a huge conflict of interest here. The hospital makes diagnosis, requests that the person lose their autonomy, gets control over that person, financially benefits from that control, and can use that control to hide any misdeeds or contrary evidence. There is also a profound disrespect for human autonomy. Hospitals disrespect autonomy for many people in many ways, with the most common being when birthing mothe…

On the flip side, we have thousands of obviously mentally ill people on the street homeless because we can't commit them because of that human autonomy that you mention. It all points to public healthcare where there is governance at a political level and not profit level.

"obviously mentally ill people on the street homeless"

The problem with forced treatment is that while there is a category of people who can be said to be in need of help, there are others who are quite within their right to do with their lives whatever they please, as long as they are not explicitly breaking the law, but prefer non-conventional life choices.

The main problem with enforced norms is that it pigeonholes everyone into "standard acceptable human" categorization, and if you don't fit into it, you become an outlaw.

The western societies had great fun categorizing people into various abnormality groups, leading into practical eugenics (forced sterilizatin) and forced incarceration. See for example [0].

Germany's 1940's escapades brought this arbitrary categorization fad to an end with the holocaust, where it became explicitly clear what the logical end result is when you start mass categorizing people into first-grade and second-grade citizens.

I have close relatives who would have benefitted from forced treatment, but I still prefer a society that does not do this.

True, there is a difference between eugenics and declaring someone 'too sick', but not that great actually since we don't really have a reliable gauge for a persons mental health - hence, it becomes arbitrary categorization based on just not falling within subjective norms of the dominating culture within society.

[0] https://www.nature.com/scitable/forums/genetics-generation/a...

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#105

Post by mikorym »

burfog wrote: post #2

There is a huge conflict of interest here. The hospital makes diagnosis, requests that the person lose their autonomy, gets control over that person, financially benefits from that control, and can use that control to hide any misdeeds or contrary evidence. There is also a profound disrespect for human autonomy. Hospitals disrespect autonomy for many people in many ways, with the most common being when birthing mothe…

The article does not elucidate the complete circumstances of the girl's hospitalisation and due to confidentiality, can not.

That is enough reason for me to consider this article to be sensasional. It is impossible to say who is at fault.

In general, it often happens that people think they know better than doctors, and in this case she may simply be lucky that she did not get seriously ill. The article itself contains a lot of incoherent quotes and it is impossible to make any sense or argument from it.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#106

Post by maze-le »

paxy wrote: post #7
burfog wrote: post #2

There is a huge conflict of interest here. The hospital makes diagnosis, requests that the person lose their autonomy, gets control over that person, financially benefits from that control, and can use that control to hide any misdeeds or contrary evidence. There is also a profound disrespect for human autonomy. Hospitals disrespect autonomy for many people in many ways, with the most common being when birthing mothe…

> credit goes to a couple judges who denied the Mayo clinic's requests Also to the police, who refused to pursue the "abduction" once it was clear that the patient was being taken care of at another hospital.

Credit, really? For pursuing the only sane course of action after all others have been played out?

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#108

Post by mnw21cam »

tomohawk wrote: post #96
pjc50 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that due to medical privacy law we can't hear the hospital's side of this. There may be something there and it's not unheard of for the parents to also be weird and controlling. > financially benefits from that control Yeah, this is a more fundamental problem with for-profit hospitals - money gets involved in treatment decisions.

I've seen this too, but I've found ego is much more of a problem. I've seen doctors get locked into a course of action and get fixated on it. At that point, facts don't matter. They HAVE to be right. The other staff fall into line, because they have an ongoing work relationship, and only a transient connection to the patient. It's good that at least for now there is still choice in facilities in our country. This wou…

Hospitals in the UK have for the last few years been receiving training to counter this, based on the lessons learnt by the airline industry - Cockpit Management. This was set in motion by an airline pilot whose daughter died in a hospital because of a mistake made by a senior surgeon who wouldn't listen to the junior staff who had noticed it. The tl;dr of it is that saying "Stop, I think you are making a mistake" is an effective way for junior staff to get senior staff to pay attention, and can save lives.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#109

Post by mnw21cam »

lylecubed wrote: post #6
outside1234 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, we have thousands of obviously mentally ill people on the street homeless because we can't commit them because of that human autonomy that you mention. It all points to public healthcare where there is governance at a political level and not profit level.

It's unconscionable to suggest that hospitals be allowed to legally kidnap people because of something as hand wavy as 'some homeless are mentally ill'.

Committing someone to enforced treatment is an absolutely massive action. In the UK, it requires a police officer, doctor, and social worker to all agree that it is necessary.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#110

Post by maze-le »

fsloth wrote: post #104
outside1234 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, we have thousands of obviously mentally ill people on the street homeless because we can't commit them because of that human autonomy that you mention. It all points to public healthcare where there is governance at a political level and not profit level.

"obviously mentally ill people on the street homeless" The problem with forced treatment is that while there is a category of people who can be said to be in need of help, there are others who are quite within their right to do with their lives whatever they please, as long as they are not explicitly breaking the law, but prefer non-conventional life choices. The main problem with enforced norms is that it pigeonhole…

As you pointed out: " there is a category of people who can be said to be in need of help, there are others who are quite within their right to do with their lives whatever they please". But, if you only provide help to those who need it and are willing to accept it, there would be no forced-treatment-problem like described. I am convinced that quite a few of the "homeless, mentally ill" would be willing to accept help, that they are usually denied (because of the lack of a house, job and insurance).
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