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Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

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Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#31

Post by briandear »

burfog wrote: post #2

There is a huge conflict of interest here. The hospital makes diagnosis, requests that the person lose their autonomy, gets control over that person, financially benefits from that control, and can use that control to hide any misdeeds or contrary evidence. There is also a profound disrespect for human autonomy. Hospitals disrespect autonomy for many people in many ways, with the most common being when birthing mothe…

However, guardianship or consevatorship (when the person is over 18,) imparts a fiduciary duty on the person/organization to provide for the needs of their ward. So the ability of Mayo to “financially benefit” could be subject to debate. They assume financial responsibility with the assumption of guardianship.

In terms of Mayo, they are one of the best hospitals in the world, current situation notwithstanding. It isn’t like the national monopoly one might find in the NHS. Remember a very similar situation happened with Alfie Evans — except Alfie was terminal and had a minimal chance of survival and the U.K. government still refused to allow him to leave the U.K.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#32

Post by luddaite »

lylecubed wrote: post #28
luddaite wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems pretty unfair to malign the entire field of medicine due to a single bad actor. I went to medical school prior to becoming an engineer and my impression was that most if not all of my classmates were genuine in their desire to help improve the lives of others. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with your previous PCP but they don't represent the profession as a whole. Also, if ADD is not a mental illnes…

> It seems pretty unfair to malign the entire field of medicine due to a single bad actor. Do a little research. Prescription fraud of this sort is widespread in the US.

I have definitely seen anecdotal stories of this occurring. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that this type of behavior is widespread?

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#33

Post by [deleted] »

luddaite wrote: post #32
lylecubed wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems pretty unfair to malign the entire field of medicine due to a single bad actor. Do a little research. Prescription fraud of this sort is widespread in the US.

I have definitely seen anecdotal stories of this occurring. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that this type of behavior is widespread?

[deleted]

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#34

Post by JoeAltmaier »

lylecubed wrote: post #25
arkades wrote: post #22

As a HIPAA issue, the Mayo cannot defend itself here - it has no right to disclose any information on this patient’s stay or condition. Key quote, >“You’re only hearing one side,” cautioned Dr. Chris Feudtner, a professor of pediatrics, medical ethics and health policy at the University of Pennsylvania Perelman School of Medicine. They “broke her out” while she still had a feeding tube in place, and had only just “Th…

> Which makes their actions less evil than the article implies. And accusing the mother of having a history of mental illness in an attempt to get conservatorship when no such history exists? Sounds pretty damned evil to me. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Even if they had their patient's best interests at heart, that doesn't excuse what they did.

We don't have any information on the parents at all. I know its good to give parents the benefit of the doubt, but these people could have been ignorant, suspicious and contrary. Or 100 other things, that make a trained physician wary of trusting them with anything as important as a critically ill patient.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#36

Post by gouggoug »

I am having a hard time understanding how Mayo was able to basically hold one of their patient hostage. Isn't that akin to kidnapping?

But also:

What prevented Alyssa from getting up her bed and walk out? When did her parents start "figuring out how to escape" and how long for? If they were at that point were they believed they needed to "escape" from the hospital, why didn't they call the police?

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#37

Post by hrktb »

luddaite wrote: post #17

It's easy to attribute this whole situation to greed and/or malice but I think that fails Hanlon's razor. I can easily see this whole situation occurring because of poor communication and the culture of paternalism in medicine. It is not hard to imagine a team of healthcare providers that know or think they know what is good for their patient and do a poor job explaining why they are making the decisions that they ar…

Is there a need to attribute to malice when all the incentives are stacked against the correct behavior ?

Poor communication partly occurs because at no point does the Clinic have to go against its interest, there is that much less friction in the decisions taken.

Ethics is an issue but it seems that wouldn’t be sufficient as a focus for a solution.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#38

Post by larkeith »

luddaite wrote: post #17

It's easy to attribute this whole situation to greed and/or malice but I think that fails Hanlon's razor. I can easily see this whole situation occurring because of poor communication and the culture of paternalism in medicine. It is not hard to imagine a team of healthcare providers that know or think they know what is good for their patient and do a poor job explaining why they are making the decisions that they ar…

While I agree this type of situation is likely most often due to miscommunication, that doesn't preclude certain instances from being malicious in intent (possibly including this one - we really don't have enough information to attribute motive and cause, but there are enough odd behaviors on the Mayo clinic's part that I hesitate to employ Hanlon's razor). The hospital's ethics council only works as a solution to greed and/or malice when the patient has prior knowledge of the council, as otherwise there is little reason to believe they would be informed - and even in the case of a knowledgeable patient, the integrity of the council may be compromised due to the same conflict of interest. An unaffiliated council might be effective in avoiding this, but that fails to solve the problem of dissemination of information. Perhaps the role could be foisted onto insurance providers, but they are not impartial (having financial incentives to reduce patient expenses, as well as strong relationships with hospitals). A potential solution is to use smaller, local clinics, rather than nationwide chains, as smaller companies are generally more pliable, both to non-contentious discussion and legal pressure, but such clinics are increasingly a rarity in many areas.

It's a thorny problem, that's made more so by its perceived rarity - if few are impacted by it and even less speak out over it, it's difficult to justify reform or review, especially if it increases the financial burden of the healthcare system.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#39

Post by ars »

arkades wrote: post #22

As a HIPAA issue, the Mayo cannot defend itself here - it has no right to disclose any information on this patient’s stay or condition. Key quote, >“You’re only hearing one side,” cautioned Dr. Chris Feudtner, a professor of pediatrics, medical ethics and health policy at the University of Pennsylvania Perelman School of Medicine. They “broke her out” while she still had a feeding tube in place, and had only just “Th…

> has no right to disclose any information on this patient’s stay or condition

Except that according to the article the Mayo said they would if the patient signed a release form. So the patient did so (called their bluff basically), and they still refused to discuss it.

> they earnestly thought she was extremely ill. Which makes their actions less evil than the article implies.

Make no difference whatsoever. People have the right to stop medical treatment whenever they like. They have zero right to force anything on anyone.

On top of that a different set of Dr's said she was just fine to go home. So on top of everything else they were also wrong medically.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#40

Post by PiggySpeed »

lylecubed wrote: post #30
PiggySpeed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was referring to your reply to outside1234's comment. His answer was in the scope of the "obviously mentally ill" population. And I addressed your reply to that. It is incorrect to take my response outside of its intended context and attempt to attack it there.

The context of this conversation is the mayo clinic kidnapping a patient. If you want to talk about the homeless problem outside of that context, start another post.

Context change was implied as soon as the respondent began with the words "on the flip side...". The topic in this sub-tree is now about that "flip side". Discussion has expanded into new areas.
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