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Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

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Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#31

Post by chillacy »

c3534l wrote: post #2

It's really unfortunate that abiding by local laws and regulations is considered unethical. But even if we assume that there is no legal way for a company to operate ethically in China, is the world meant to close our borders to them entirely? 20% of the planet lives there and we do business with China every day when we buy something manufactured there, but do not feel morally required to boycott them on account of t…

Sounds like there's a parallel with boycotts of Apartheid South Africa?

Anyways I think the best answer for society to the general question of "if there's no legal way for a company to operate ethically, should it not?" is a resounding yes. However game theory will ensure that in absence of external pressure (via regulation or public sentiment), companies will try to serve the market for profit.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#32

Post by est »

c3534l wrote: post #2

It's really unfortunate that abiding by local laws and regulations is considered unethical. But even if we assume that there is no legal way for a company to operate ethically in China, is the world meant to close our borders to them entirely? 20% of the planet lives there and we do business with China every day when we buy something manufactured there, but do not feel morally required to boycott them on account of t…

> It's really unfortunate that abiding by local laws and regulations is considered unethical

No, it's that speaking up against local "laws" and quit, then come back again that's unethical.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#34

Post by vkou »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #26
xiii1408 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It's not fair to justify building the machinery of a totalitarian state as simply "abiding by local laws and regulations." Not when the consequences involve clear violations of human rights. You don't have to look far to see how bad things have gotten recently in China, from abductions of booksellers in Hong Kong to an activist being carted away literally during a phone interview with Voice of America. When Weste…

Don't forget them placing 1 million Uyghurs (and counting) in "re-education camps" designed to destroy their culture and religion.

The last residential 'school' (which was aimed to do the same for First Nations people) in Canada closed in 1996, with little more then a hummm-hummm.

Our shit stinks almost as much.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#35

Post by Nasrudith »

AntiGameZ wrote: post #16

Some people at China desperately want to access Google for a better search experience. Is a 80% percent of Google better than no Google at all for Chinese people? If people is dying and you have the cure with a little bit stains, is the ethical violated if you save people with a imperfect way or just let the pantient to die is a better option?

It is akin to embargo ethics essentially. Technically buying coal from North Korea can help feed the people but by supporting their government you help prolong their power and thus lead to more suffering. It is ethically messy on the right side even.

Similarly by not giving them access to what they know the rest of the world has you breed discontent with the current way of doing things. The culture and thus indirect demand flows regardless of what they do like rock music into the USSR. It also isn't an absolute denial - google would gladly step back into China with no ethical qualms if they abandoned their censorship policies. Their government would find it unthinkable however.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#36

Post by gcb0 »

intralizee wrote: post #33

I'm happy I never put in the hours studying algorithms to work at Google. Whatever happened to following their slogan?

Money. And people are loving it. I doubt anybody will ask who designed this immoral plan on the next investor meeting. If they ask, it will be for praises.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#37

Post by reaperducer »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #24
mirimir wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because everyone knows that Baidu is government-controlled. So google.cn, even though many would know that it's also compromised, would basically be a honeypot. It would be far better for access to Google to remain dependent on VPN and Tor. And in that regard, it'd be very cool if Google didn't block Tor exits.

Baidu is not government controlled, just submissive to it. Though it operates under the credo of “ask for forgiveness rather than permission” like almost every other Chinese tech company, so even that relationship is complicated.

Like a dog on a leash isn't controlled by its owner, it's just submissive to him? Riiiiiight.

If Baidu was really doing anything independent, then it would get reined in, like the overseas Chinese real estate firms are.

As for censorship:

"According to the China Digital Times, Baidu has a long history of being the most active and restrictive online censor in the search arena. Documents leaked in April 2009 from an employee in Baidu's internal monitoring and censorship department show a long list of blocked websites and censored topics on Baidu search."

I don't think Baidu came up with that list all by itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baidu#Censorship

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#39

Post by lx3459683 »

topmonk wrote: post #29
xiii1408 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It's not fair to justify building the machinery of a totalitarian state as simply "abiding by local laws and regulations." Not when the consequences involve clear violations of human rights. You don't have to look far to see how bad things have gotten recently in China, from abductions of booksellers in Hong Kong to an activist being carted away literally during a phone interview with Voice of America. When Weste…

Aren't you asking Western companies to take a stand, in place of yourself? Even if your moral position is correct, there should be a law made in the USA to do what you're talking about. Otherwise, less well known companies would be able to scoot under the radar, while more prominent ones would be taken down. So, to be fair, the onus is on you to stand up for what you believe in and campaign and vote for the ideas you…

Parent's action or inaction regarding this matter makes zero difference to the subject at hand. You've attacked the parent post without actually refuting a single thing it contained.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#40

Post by reaperducer »

codeka wrote: post #25
ronnier wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is, it’ll sit just fine with them and we won’t see any push back.

What makes you say that? See, eg https://theintercept.com/2018/08/03/google-search-engine-chi...

Maybe because, according to your link, hundreds of people inside Google knew about this for over a year and said nothing?

It's one thing for a plan like this to be secret among a bunch of C-levels in a boardroom for a week. It's something else when HUNDREDS of people are involved, and a product is ready to deploy. That indicates a cultural problem within the company.

More evidence of that (again from your link):

"Company managers responded by swiftly trying to shut down employees’ access to any documents that contained information about the China censorship project, according to Google insiders who witnessed the backlash."

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