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USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

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191–200 of 247 posts

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#191
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, most of the credentialed ones are funded by fossil fuels industries. Either directly or via shells to obscure sources. And so their objectivity is at least questionable. Second, there's support from public relations firms, also clearly funded by fossil fuels industries. It grew out of the "smokers rights" campaign in the early 80s, which was funded by the tobacco industry. And indeed, the "climate-change denia…

“Ridicule is man's most potent weapon." "Keep the pressure on." "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself." "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition." "If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside" "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." From Saul Alisky…

> “Ridicule is man's most potent weapon."

Yet the linked post doesn't employ it.

> "Keep the pressure on."

This is the same as be vigilant, be persistent. Fight for what you believe in. This has nothing to do with skeptics, it's about engaging those who similarly do so. Thus it's an active discussion. The pressure is obvious because of the high stakes nature of the topic.

> "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself."

The threat of a fucked up Earth for our children seems a lot more terrifying for us than for them. They are born into it, we see the change.

> "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition."

This simply applies to people who are either science communicators by occupation or paid shills for fossil companies.

> "If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside"

That's why climate change denialists continue to deny full force, clinging onto the slightest thing. Fighting straw men.

> "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it."

That's again why denialists muddy up old things, like the Al Gore movie. Which has nothing to do with the science.

> the alarmist side instead uses phrases like “virtually none of the climate-change deniers have a clue about the underlying science.”

And? It seems to be true. It's not a smear phrase, it's the truth laid bare. Denialists are not sophisticated scientists proposing alternate models that explain the data better. Their level of argumentation is very simple, and very much not in good faith.

> It’s impossible to have a rational debate when the leadership of the debate engages in ad hominem attacks as a matter of tactics.

I don't know who you identify as the "leadership", but there are millions of people who think there's man made global warming and they regularly try to convince other people of this without following any sort of leadership.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#192
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this may be true, but appeal to authority is still a logical fallacy. You can't just shame people into believing something they don't understand because "smarter" people believe it. It's a shameful failure of communication more than anything else. And I don't understand why people like you don't understand that.

Specialization is an unavoidable fact of life. Not everyone can be an expert in everything. If my car mechanic (or 99 out of 100 car mechanics) says I need new brake pads, and I don’t know anything about car maintenance, why would I reject their diagnosis? I would not only be endangering myself, but other drivers. If I am going to reject my mechanic’s diagnosis I need to have strong evidence and reasoning to support…

Ehh, I understand your point in general, but I think it's significantly more nuanced than that.

Take the car mechanic. His incentives don't completely align with yours. Taking a benign example, his goals are to keep your car in good condition and to make money. Your goals are to keep your car in good condition and to save money. Thus, the car mechanic might err on the side of caution and suggest you replace your car brakes every 30 thousand miles, while you (assuming you knew all the relevant information) would only replace the brakes every 50 thousand miles.

In the absence of "strong evidence and reasoning", you may still reasonably decide that you don't trust the mechanic.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#193
post #94

And they are trying to convince me using charts with a truncated y axis? How about doing it with charts that are not misleading?

What would you propose for a zero value on the Y axis? The only number that actually makes sense is zero Kelvin (since 0C and 0F are just arbitrary numbers). At that scale you will not see anything. But that doesn't mean nothing is happening. The charts are fine.

>At that scale you will not see anything. But that doesn't mean nothing is happening.

But then you can't say such things like "red line is rising scary fast", which is another example of manipulative language. With enough Y-axis magnification you can make anything rising or dropping "scary fast".

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#194
post #128

Look at the temperature chart for the last 10,000 years, the greenland core ice temperature, GISP2 for example, and you'll see a completely different picture. Everything looks extreme when looked at a very small scale...

https://www.heritagedaily.com/2018/07/doggerland-europes-los...

Doggerland was submerged 5,000 BC because of water rising due to the ice cap melting...

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#195
post #185

Honest question: Why such vitriol against "climate deniers?" The term "climate denier" is loading with negative connotation just on it's face, and it's rarely used in isolation in an otherwise respectful way. There will always be people that disagree with you about something. Some are honest, some are not. Why be an asshole and treat people poorly and disrespectfully? That makes you as bad or worse than them IMHO. Ev…

Or going the another way, why such faith in the climate fitters? Global warming skepticism has got almost nothing to do with “climate denial PR campaigns” and everything to do with people having functioning BS detectors. To wit: * lofty claims of certainty based on computer models that can’t be effectively tested with out-of-sample data * argument relying on “consensus” of the scientific “community” * unseemly behavi…

> Global warming skepticism has [...] everything to do with people having functioning BS detectors. To wit: [...]

LOL. Notice that none of your points address any specific studies. I've never met a self-identified climate change skeptic who reads the journals of the American Geophysical Union[1], like I have since the 1990s. But you people have "functioning BS detectors", "common sense", etc. -- just like all the creationists I've met.

[1] https://publications.agu.org/journals/

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#196
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is that most of your examples are things where disagreement is actually a valid thing. They’re are all political in nature and different opinions are just that, opinions. Climate change isn’t. It’s a scientific fact. On the same footing as the second law of thermodynamics at this point. There just is no disagreement to be had that isn’t as ludicrous as debating political sides of the flat earth “theory” The o…

The change in temperature observed is a fact. The explanation is a mathematical model of a very complex mechanism that we barely understand. For instance there was an article on hn recently about how the ocean could capture a lot more co2 than anticipated [1]. And none of these models had the benefit of being tested for their capacity to predict the future. Anyone who has toyed with any predictive model knows how eas…

That's a misrepresentation of the evidence. I'm a layman, so anyone reading should offer any necessary correction.

Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. So is water. There is enough water around that we probably misnamed the planet, and in general we can say that the atmosphere is saturated with it: you may even have noticed some precipitation.

Between CO2 and H2O and a few other things, our planet is kept temperate instead of being a ball of ice. For the most part, water completely swamps the effect of CO2, and for the most part, the atmosphere is completely opaque to outgoing radiation at far lower levels of CO2 than are present naturally. So we can ignore CO2, right? Almost. There is a small window of radiation that water vapor does not block, but more importantly, there is not a lot of water above the troposphere.

IR photos look blurry. The mean free path of an IR photon (which is how most heat leaves Earth, because Planck) at sea level is quite short, in the tens-of-meters, with the distance rising as the photon makes its way out of the atmosphere. The radiative top-of-atmosphere is where the mean free path becomes infinite. The effect of an increased partial pressure of CO2 is to push the CO2-dense layer further out into space. Outgoing radiation must take a longer path to reach space, and therefore we say that this traps heat near the surface. The effect is not large: the commonly accepted figure is 3.7 W/m^2 per doubling of CO2, which is usually held to be equivalent to about 1 degree of global temperature.

If there were no other considerations, we would probably be justified in ignoring CO2-induced warming indefinitely. However, as any resident of the American South will attest, there is a pretty wicked relationship between temperature and humidity. Warmer air can hold exponentially more water vapor, and it's not a gentle exponent. A naive calculation would suggest that the CO2-H2O feedback loop would result in arbitrarily high temperatures. Fortunately this is not observed, but the lower bound for warming is pretty hard, due to thermodynamics, and at least part of the H2O feedback is strongly positive. We are in for some warming, any way you dice it.

But hey, that could be anyone's CO2, right? Well, no, not really. We know how much oil we're burning, and petrocarbon has a very different C13 ratio than what we find in the rest of the carbon cycle, and we're completely dwarfing the volcanic CO2 output. There's a T. Gerlach of USGS who has given humanity's output of CO2 as about one Pinatubo per day, or one or more Yellowstone-sized supervolcano eruptions per year. By volume, this is not the worst outgassing the planet has seen. The Deccan Traps released something like 1000 times the amount of carbon that humanity has managed to liberate. However, that took a few million years, and we are on track to equal that outgassing in about 1000 years at the current rates.

"But," you say, "how do we know there isn't some alternate explanation?" We cannot rule out new physics. However, new physics has to reproduce the results from the old physics. We know that CO2 and H2O are greenhouse gases, and we know we need a very large effect to counteract them, because at least part of the feedback loop is strongly positive. Despite the efforts of Dr. Lindzen, it seems we can rule out clouds as a moderating influence. A large unnoticed way to transfer energy to space is pretty implausible at this point, and it still would leave us with a CO2 problem in the long run; there are limits even to special pleading.

The explanation of global warming is complex, but not as complex as trying to model the future effects. There is a great deal of effort devoted to conflating these two things for political purposes.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specialization is an unavoidable fact of life. Not everyone can be an expert in everything. If my car mechanic (or 99 out of 100 car mechanics) says I need new brake pads, and I don’t know anything about car maintenance, why would I reject their diagnosis? I would not only be endangering myself, but other drivers. If I am going to reject my mechanic’s diagnosis I need to have strong evidence and reasoning to support…

Ehh, I understand your point in general, but I think it's significantly more nuanced than that. Take the car mechanic. His incentives don't completely align with yours. Taking a benign example, his goals are to keep your car in good condition and to make money. Your goals are to keep your car in good condition and to save money. Thus, the car mechanic might err on the side of caution and suggest you replace your car…

Sure, a given mechanic or a given surgeon might err. So go get a second opinion. But if you get 99 second opinions, and all but one agrees with the original mechanic, rejection of that diagnosis is an extraordinary claim. And an extraordinary claim requires strong evidence and reasoning if your decision is going to put the lives of others at risk.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the Pascal's wager argument for action on Climate change (which is that if there is even 1% chance of climate change being real then why not act on it since the downside of acting is nothing ), but the question is, what if climate change is NOT man-made? If there is even 1% chance that climate change is a naturally occurring phenomenon then all our efforts to 'stop' greenhouse gas emissions is not going to giv…

Climate change is man-made. We know how much oil we're burning, and we can measure the atmospheric CO2 carbon ratios, and also measure volcanic emissions. The picture is very consistent. There's also no real hope for an alternate mechanism. The actual effect of an increased partial pressure of CO2 is to push the CO2-rich region further out into space. Physics dictates that this must warm the Earth, by ~3.7 W/m^2 per…

I guess you don't know "Pascal's Wager" argument for climate change.

Because this is equivalent of hearing "But Bible is real, God himself wrote that in the bible, how dare you suggest that there might be 1% chance of God not being real?" in an actual 'Pascal's wager' argument.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#199
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the Pascal's wager argument for action on Climate change (which is that if there is even 1% chance of climate change being real then why not act on it since the downside of acting is nothing ), but the question is, what if climate change is NOT man-made? If there is even 1% chance that climate change is a naturally occurring phenomenon then all our efforts to 'stop' greenhouse gas emissions is not going to giv…

Argument against is simple: Mitigating effects climate change as you suggest will be extremely expensive. (Protecting cities from rising sea levels is really the least of problems...) If we can do something much cheaper (prevent climate change) and there is a 99% chance of it working then of course you should; probibalistically... Yet despite what the math says, the path the world is on is obviously to do nothing. Th…

> Mitigating effects climate change as you suggest will be extremely expensive.

But as I said, if there is 1% chance that climate change is not anthropogenic, then our actions would be futile.

Moreover, the literal argument you're making is what Climate Change skeptics make against curbing climate change measures.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#200
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the Pascal's wager argument for action on Climate change (which is that if there is even 1% chance of climate change being real then why not act on it since the downside of acting is nothing ), but the question is, what if climate change is NOT man-made? If there is even 1% chance that climate change is a naturally occurring phenomenon then all our efforts to 'stop' greenhouse gas emissions is not going to giv…

If there's 1% chance that we're all mistaken how climate works, why would building levies would be a solution to anything? It means we literally have no idea what will happen, and there's no way to know if the levies will be high enough or if it will be needed at all. You will be wasting a trillion dollars in the off chance that (1) we don't understand climate and yet (2) the climate happens to do exactly the thing y…

Thanks for at least responding to my actual argument.

> It means we literally have no idea what will happen, and there's no way to know if the levies will be high enough or if it will be needed at all.

I got some big problems with the climate change mitigation methods which presume anthropogenic nature.

The biggest one being, we can reduce our Carbon emissions and stuff, but this solution requires EVERYONE to do it. One defection (like China or India) and it might result in everyone defecting or our solution becoming futile.

On the other hand 'building levies' (which is just a way to label the actions which try to fight climate change by negating its effect, require each individual country to act in their own interest and it can be effectively pulled off.

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