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Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

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Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#31

Post by perl4ever »

xenadu02 wrote: post #22
perl4ever wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Wikipedia, the US did not do any such thing to the sons of the Rosenbergs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Meeropol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Meeropol

The Rosenbergs were US Citizens, not foreign spies. There was never any doubt about their citizenship.

That doesn't mean whether their sons were tortured or otherwise persecuted is irrelevant as evidence of what the US is like. As we see in this thread the categories of "foreign spies" and "traitors" are associated in peoples' minds.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#32

Post by akudha »

rgbrenner wrote: post #14
negadave wrote: post #9

Are kids born to spies spies themselves? Is ideology genetic? I know one thing, they'll live a lifetime of surveillance if they stay, and how will society treat them knowing their background?

That's not the governments argument. Canada does not grant citizenship to children born to foreign diplomats working in Canada. The argument is that since spies are working for a foreign government, their children also do not qualify for citizenship. That's a very clear, easy to understand rule. It makes perfect sense. The only question is if a rule that applies to foreign diplomats can also apply to spies.

Lets say a child born to spies grows up for 20 years in Canada, as a Canadian and has nothing to do with his/her parents spying activities. If suddenly one day they lose their citizenship, what are they supposed to do? Where are they supposed to go? Canada is the only homeland they've known. How does them getting punished for their parents' sins makes any sense?

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#33

Post by perl4ever »

rgbrenner wrote: post #16
perl4ever wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a "spy" has a child in Canada who would not be a citizen but for where they are born, that implies the parent cannot be guilty of treason against Canada as they are not Canadian. Also, as a counterpoint, applying penalties for crimes to the descendants of an offender has become unfashionable in some circles. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attainder "The United States Constitution prohibits corruption of blood…

Revoking citizenship is not a penalty. Most countries do not grant jus soli rights, and several grant it only with significant restrictions. This is not a universal human right. Canada has a right to set restrictions on jus soli rights. Canada already does not grant citizenship to children born to foreign diplomats working in Canada. Spies are working for a foreign government, just not declaring it. The defense in th…

I wasn't using the word "penalty" in a legalistic sense, and I think you are. Something can have multiple causes or effects, so insisting that one of them is the correct one may be beside the point.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#34

Post by pvg »

negadave wrote: post #9

Are kids born to spies spies themselves? Is ideology genetic? I know one thing, they'll live a lifetime of surveillance if they stay, and how will society treat them knowing their background?

Why would they live a lifetime of surveillance and mistreatment by society?

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#36

Post by kazinator »

DKnoll wrote: post #26
kazinator wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're misinformed; Canada is so loose, it actually has a "birth tourism" problem. Pregnant women come from Canada from other countries as mere visitors in order to deliver here, so that it can be Canadian and enjoy perks like much cheaper university tuition down the line. Sometimes these women rack up big hospital bills which are left unpaid. The fact that we are even debating whether the offspring of foreign enemie…

There's a country directly south of Canada made for people with views like yours. Feel free to leave at any time. I've never heard of this problem with immigrants coming to Canada just to give their children Canadian citizenship before, I'd love to see some documentation. It sounds suspiciously similar to right wing rhetoric in the United States that claims Mexican women do the same. A founding value of our country i…

> I've never heard of this problem with immigrants coming to Canada just to give their children Canadian citizenship before, I'd love to see some documentation.

A good start might be to search "CBC birth tourism". (The CBC isn't some right-wing mouthpiece, but it has reported on the issue. Usually using the perspective like that something is going on that some conservatives (i.e. no, not us) would like to end.)

Birth tourism isn't immigration. These mothers have no status in Canada and aren't going through any immigration process to become permanent residents or citizens. They are just sneaking in their kids ahead of the immigration queue by the mere fact that those kids were delivered while on a well-timed vacation in Canada.

It's vicious and despicable; like an insect injecting its eggs into a host.

> right wing rhetoric in the United States that claims Mexican women do the same

Calling something "rhetoric" is a rhetorical device.

Is that rhetoric true or false?

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#37

Post by DKnoll »

kazinator wrote: post #36
DKnoll wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a country directly south of Canada made for people with views like yours. Feel free to leave at any time. I've never heard of this problem with immigrants coming to Canada just to give their children Canadian citizenship before, I'd love to see some documentation. It sounds suspiciously similar to right wing rhetoric in the United States that claims Mexican women do the same. A founding value of our country i…

> I've never heard of this problem with immigrants coming to Canada just to give their children Canadian citizenship before, I'd love to see some documentation. A good start might be to search "CBC birth tourism". (The CBC isn't some right-wing mouthpiece, but it has reported on the issue. Usually using the perspective like that something is going on that some conservatives (i.e. no, not us) would like to end.) Birth…

Kavinator said:

>It's vicious and despicable; like an insect injecting its eggs into a host.

The fact that you would refer to another human being looking for a better future for their child (and their child alone) as an insect is a validation of my assumptions about your character after seeing your first comment. I have no further comments.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#38

Post by bmcusick »

What is a spy?

They're not a legal immigrant, because they lied on their immigration papers, making their immigration invalid.

If they're an illegal immigrant, their children would be granted citizenship.

If they're a diplomat, their children would not be granted citizenship. The child of the Russian Ambassador does not become a Canadian citizen even if born and raised in Toronto.

I think the government's argument that they're more like a diplomat (an agent of a foreign country) than an undocumented resident (e.g., someone who's entered the country of their own volition for work) is pretty sound.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#39

Post by cncrnd »

mirimir wrote: post #8
cncrnd wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soil rights are not a basic human right... In many countries it is nearly impossible to get citizenship without having citizen parents. I'm not sure why you would want to give the children of those committing treason citizenship, it could be a future risk if said children enter the same path.

> ... those committing treason ... Foreign agents who aren't citizens aren't committing treason. That is, unless they defect.

Actually, you don't have to be a citizen to commit treason. There is a notion of 'temporary allegiance' which allows non citizens to be prosecuted for treason.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#40

Post by dragonwriter »

cncrnd wrote: post #4
hartator wrote: post #2

Canada wants to be one of the most progressive country in the world, making fun of us in the US, while denying basic soil rights. /irony

Soil rights are not a basic human right... In many countries it is nearly impossible to get citizenship without having citizen parents. I'm not sure why you would want to give the children of those committing treason citizenship, it could be a future risk if said children enter the same path.

> I'm not sure why you would want to give the children of those committing treason citizenship

There's a reason that the US Constitutionally prohibited corruption of blood from the establishment of the Constitution and the United Kingdom abolished it in the 19th Century.

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