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Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

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Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#21

Post by rgbrenner »

mehrdadn wrote: post #18
rgbrenner wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the governments argument. Canada does not grant citizenship to children born to foreign diplomats working in Canada. The argument is that since spies are working for a foreign government, their children also do not qualify for citizenship. That's a very clear, easy to understand rule. It makes perfect sense. The only question is if a rule that applies to foreign diplomats can also apply to spies.

I'd presume if they know you're a spy then you're failing at spying, right? But if you don't already know that they know (otherwise you probably wouldn't stick around?) then your poor kid now has no idea if he's a citizen or not. So this would mean that you could have a kid that grows up thinking he's a citizen, and being treated as he is, but who suddenly finds out he's not. That would suck for the kid. Do they imag…

The kid does have citizenship... of the parents country. The brothers in the article are Russian citizens.

The parents knew 100% who they were working for. Maybe they shouldn't lie to their children?

It's sort of like Madoff stealing billions and his children growing up thinking they were rich.. and then one day, the government comes and takes all the money away and imprisons the thief. And then someone asks, but shouldn't these children still be rich? Why should they live in poverty when they grew up their entire lives thinking they were billionaires?

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#22

Post by xenadu02 »

perl4ever wrote: post #15
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I bet all the US does to children of spies is lock them in secret facilities we know nothing about and torture them worse than ICE, no biggie.

According to Wikipedia, the US did not do any such thing to the sons of the Rosenbergs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Meeropol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Meeropol

The Rosenbergs were US Citizens, not foreign spies. There was never any doubt about their citizenship.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#23

Post by anigbrowl »

rgbrenner wrote: post #14
negadave wrote: post #9

Are kids born to spies spies themselves? Is ideology genetic? I know one thing, they'll live a lifetime of surveillance if they stay, and how will society treat them knowing their background?

That's not the governments argument. Canada does not grant citizenship to children born to foreign diplomats working in Canada. The argument is that since spies are working for a foreign government, their children also do not qualify for citizenship. That's a very clear, easy to understand rule. It makes perfect sense. The only question is if a rule that applies to foreign diplomats can also apply to spies.

Yes, but it's overly simplistic. It's not the fault of the kids that their parents were engage din deception, and now that the kids have (partially) grown up in the sincere belief that they are Canadian they have a separate interest from that of their parents. In a tricky cas like this you could rule with the proviso that they won't be able to enjoy the normal benefits that would accrue to the parents of citizens, like any preferential immigration or visa rights.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#24

Post by anigbrowl »

rgbrenner wrote: post #21
mehrdadn wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd presume if they know you're a spy then you're failing at spying, right? But if you don't already know that they know (otherwise you probably wouldn't stick around?) then your poor kid now has no idea if he's a citizen or not. So this would mean that you could have a kid that grows up thinking he's a citizen, and being treated as he is, but who suddenly finds out he's not. That would suck for the kid. Do they imag…

The kid does have citizenship... of the parents country. The brothers in the article are Russian citizens. The parents knew 100% who they were working for. Maybe they shouldn't lie to their children? It's sort of like Madoff stealing billions and his children growing up thinking they were rich.. and then one day, the government comes and takes all the money away and imprisons the thief. And then someone asks, but sho…

Sorry, if you're inflicting problems on the kids then blaming the parents isn't a valid defense. It's distinctly different from a property interest.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#25

Post by anigbrowl »

rgbrenner wrote: post #16
perl4ever wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a "spy" has a child in Canada who would not be a citizen but for where they are born, that implies the parent cannot be guilty of treason against Canada as they are not Canadian. Also, as a counterpoint, applying penalties for crimes to the descendants of an offender has become unfashionable in some circles. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attainder "The United States Constitution prohibits corruption of blood…

Revoking citizenship is not a penalty. Most countries do not grant jus soli rights, and several grant it only with significant restrictions. This is not a universal human right. Canada has a right to set restrictions on jus soli rights. Canada already does not grant citizenship to children born to foreign diplomats working in Canada. Spies are working for a foreign government, just not declaring it. The defense in th…

Let's revoke yours and see whether you think it's a penalty or not.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#26

Post by DKnoll »

kazinator wrote: post #19
hartator wrote: post #2

Canada wants to be one of the most progressive country in the world, making fun of us in the US, while denying basic soil rights. /irony

You're misinformed; Canada is so loose, it actually has a "birth tourism" problem. Pregnant women come from Canada from other countries as mere visitors in order to deliver here, so that it can be Canadian and enjoy perks like much cheaper university tuition down the line. Sometimes these women rack up big hospital bills which are left unpaid. The fact that we are even debating whether the offspring of foreign enemie…

There's a country directly south of Canada made for people with views like yours. Feel free to leave at any time.

I've never heard of this problem with immigrants coming to Canada just to give their children Canadian citizenship before, I'd love to see some documentation. It sounds suspiciously similar to right wing rhetoric in the United States that claims Mexican women do the same.

A founding value of our country is relatively open immigration, as that is how it became populated. My distant anscestors came here and benefited from that, and I suspect yours did as well.

Having a child in Canada only benefits the child, the parent gets no benefit. They have to apply for permanent residency and get no special treatment for having a Canadian child.

Children of our enemies rejecting their parents culture choosing to live here is something we should encourage.

For historical context refer to United Empire Loyalists immigrating from the United States (an enemy at the time) and being given land grants and other privileges.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#27

Post by [deleted] »

anigbrowl wrote: post #24
rgbrenner wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kid does have citizenship... of the parents country. The brothers in the article are Russian citizens. The parents knew 100% who they were working for. Maybe they shouldn't lie to their children? It's sort of like Madoff stealing billions and his children growing up thinking they were rich.. and then one day, the government comes and takes all the money away and imprisons the thief. And then someone asks, but sho…

Sorry, if you're inflicting problems on the kids then blaming the parents isn't a valid defense. It's distinctly different from a property interest.

[deleted]

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#28

Post by amaccuish »

rgbrenner wrote: post #16
perl4ever wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a "spy" has a child in Canada who would not be a citizen but for where they are born, that implies the parent cannot be guilty of treason against Canada as they are not Canadian. Also, as a counterpoint, applying penalties for crimes to the descendants of an offender has become unfashionable in some circles. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attainder "The United States Constitution prohibits corruption of blood…

Revoking citizenship is not a penalty. Most countries do not grant jus soli rights, and several grant it only with significant restrictions. This is not a universal human right. Canada has a right to set restrictions on jus soli rights. Canada already does not grant citizenship to children born to foreign diplomats working in Canada. Spies are working for a foreign government, just not declaring it. The defense in th…

> Spies are working for a foreign government, just not declaring it.

You've changed the wording to fit your narrative. These spies were not diplomats. They had no immunity.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#29

Post by [deleted] »

amaccuish wrote: post #28
rgbrenner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revoking citizenship is not a penalty. Most countries do not grant jus soli rights, and several grant it only with significant restrictions. This is not a universal human right. Canada has a right to set restrictions on jus soli rights. Canada already does not grant citizenship to children born to foreign diplomats working in Canada. Spies are working for a foreign government, just not declaring it. The defense in th…

> Spies are working for a foreign government, just not declaring it. You've changed the wording to fit your narrative. These spies were not diplomats. They had no immunity.

[deleted]

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#30

Post by [deleted] »

anigbrowl wrote: post #25
rgbrenner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revoking citizenship is not a penalty. Most countries do not grant jus soli rights, and several grant it only with significant restrictions. This is not a universal human right. Canada has a right to set restrictions on jus soli rights. Canada already does not grant citizenship to children born to foreign diplomats working in Canada. Spies are working for a foreign government, just not declaring it. The defense in th…

Let's revoke yours and see whether you think it's a penalty or not.

[deleted]
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