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UN says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps

reuters.com

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Re: UN says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps

#21

Post by Steltek »

skybrian wrote: post #15
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #8

Parable of the Leopard: Once upon a time there was a leopard who returned from hunting to find that his cub had been killed. He went and asked the baboon “Tell me who killed my cub for I must visit terrible vengeance upon them.“ The baboon replied, “It was the elephants”, whereupon the leopard exclaimed “Surely, you lie, it was the goats.” Immediately afterward, the leopard went out and slaughtered a great many goats…

It seems that by using this analogy that you're making a fairness argument that China should be criticized more, because they're worse, and Western governments shouldn't be criticized, because they're innocent. But that doesn't make sense. In the US, for example, when injustice happens, it's possible to fight it in court. No guarantees, but it can be quite effective. Getting attention in the press is sometimes useful…

That's not how I read that comment at all. RcouF1uZ4gsC is saying that companies are cowards. Speaking out only when it's safe or beneficial for them to do so. "Heartfelt beliefs" as marketing tools.

Re: UN says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps

#22

Post by singularity2001 »

eyeareque wrote: post #12

I met someone who was from China say that these people in these camps are being “harmonized”. It’s interesting how things can be perceived when the government controls the media.

I heard the expression "qu xuexi": The went “studying”.

Re: UN says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps

#23

Post by vatueil »

oh_sigh wrote: post #3
394549 wrote: post #2

> A U.N. human rights panel said on Friday that it had received many credible reports that 1 million ethnic Uighurs in China are held in what resembles a “massive internment camp that is shrouded in secrecy”. > Gay McDougall, a member of the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, cited estimates that another 2 million Uighurs and Muslim minorities are forced into so-called “political camps for in…

A million people probably have at least 10x more relatives and friends on the outside. Ways of breaching the great firewall are well known even within China. Shouldn't there be...numerous reports of missing persons if this is the case?

Reports, such as the ones gathered in the posted link?

There have been many other articles about Uighurs in Xianxing, too. The Economist covered the latest reports a few months ago, which was discussed on HN:

* https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/05/31/china-has-turn...

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17215966

This is not a surprise, if you've been paying attention to the CCP's ham-handed attempts to handle Uighurs and to a lesser degree Muslims in general, but rather something that has been building up for years.

Re: UN says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps

#24

Post by tjr225 »

eyeareque wrote: post #12

I met someone who was from China say that these people in these camps are being “harmonized”. It’s interesting how things can be perceived when the government controls the media.

It's not so different when private entities control both the government and the media - in the case of conservative money controlling conservative propaganda arms such as Fox News and in turn conservative money also controlling congresspeople via PACs and campaign funding. Sometimes the things my Fox News Junkie Parents In Law say makes me very worried for their mental well being and the well being of our voting public..

Re: UN says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps

#26

Post by mc32 »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #8

Parable of the Leopard: Once upon a time there was a leopard who returned from hunting to find that his cub had been killed. He went and asked the baboon “Tell me who killed my cub for I must visit terrible vengeance upon them.“ The baboon replied, “It was the elephants”, whereupon the leopard exclaimed “Surely, you lie, it was the goats.” Immediately afterward, the leopard went out and slaughtered a great many goats…

I think a fair amount of that action is PR for internal consumption in order to attract and retain people who are attracted by idealism. The real world is a bit dirtier.

In addition, a company will find it difficult to unilaterally hold a moral position because competition, foreign or domestic may not entertain the same ideals and this advantage can result in long term financial and competitive advantage.

Re: UN says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps

#27

Post by oh_sigh »

394549 wrote: post #11
anoncoward111 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I was thinking too. Westerners visit Xinjiang province with cameras. If 1m people disappeared, I'm sure someone would come up to a Westerner to tell their story. 40,000 people were disappeared en masse in Chile by Pinochet. That story made it out very quickly, and only a few photographs exist of it

> That's what I was thinking too. Westerners visit Xinjiang province with cameras. If 1m people disappeared, I'm sure someone would come up to a Westerner to tell their story. China isn't a western country, and I don't think you can count on being granted western-levels of freedom of movement there, especially in "sensitive" areas. For instance, I understand you need a special permit to visit Tibet, which is another…

I was in Tibet in 2007 and a lot of locals came up and talked to me, asking America to do something about the Chinese occupation of Tibet. Our hired driver had no problem showing us his picture of the Dalai Lama(which was(still is?) illegal to possess).

Re: UN says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps

#28

Post by iamshs »

rgbrenner wrote: post #14
394549 wrote: post #2

> A U.N. human rights panel said on Friday that it had received many credible reports that 1 million ethnic Uighurs in China are held in what resembles a “massive internment camp that is shrouded in secrecy”. > Gay McDougall, a member of the U.N. Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, cited estimates that another 2 million Uighurs and Muslim minorities are forced into so-called “political camps for in…

It's not a single camp.. because a few months ago, there was a story about contracts for running these camps across the country: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/opinion/china-re-educatio...

Also follow this feed from Shawn Zheng from UBC, incredible research done by him at a personal peril. Scale of these camp is an atrocity in itself.

https://medium.com/@shawnwzhang/list-of-re-education-camps-i...

Re: UN says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps

#29

Post by oh_sigh »

vatueil wrote: post #23
oh_sigh wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A million people probably have at least 10x more relatives and friends on the outside. Ways of breaching the great firewall are well known even within China. Shouldn't there be...numerous reports of missing persons if this is the case?

Reports, such as the ones gathered in the posted link? There have been many other articles about Uighurs in Xianxing, too. The Economist covered the latest reports a few months ago, which was discussed on HN: * https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/05/31/china-has-turn... * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17215966 This is not a surprise, if you've been paying attention to the CCP's ham-handed attempts to handl…

No, because the posted link doesn't provide any numbers of reports. What does it say?

> The allegations came from multiple sources, including activist group Chinese Human Rights Defenders, which said in a report last month that 21 percent of all arrests recorded in China in 2017 were in Xinjiang.

I was thinking multiple orders of magnitude more reports if there really were 2 million missing people. Like, thousands of reports from disparate people. I'm not saying this didn't happen, because I have no special knowledge - all I'm saying is that if 2 million people disappeared from somewhere, I would imagine there would be no shortage of reports on it happening all over the place, and not that the reports would be routed through a few human rights groups.

Re: UN says it has credible reports that China holds million Uighurs in secret camps

#30

Post by abrowne »

rgbrenner wrote: post #10
hrktb wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s hard to have a sense of scale at these numbers. This camp would be the size of a pretty big town. Bigger than Boston or Antwerp for instance.

no, not bigger than boston or antwerp. The rohinga camp has 1m people: https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5a259aa13dbef48d0e8b9... Edit: I've updated the image to a more recent one.

1M is bigger than Boston proper, but not the metro area (looks like close to 5M).
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