This article is incredibly misleading in numerous ways. You can find details on pretrial release, like all other issues related to the justice department from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. This [1] paper is extremely relevant. The normal process in the US is that an individual's case will be seen by a judge within 24 hours of their detention and the judge will assign bail. Contrary to the media, the defendant is…
Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat
121–130 of 184 posts
Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
Prosecutors already only take cases they think they can win via plea bargain. Part of why convinction rates are so high is Prosecutors ignore any case they might lose or the defendant can afford a quality lawyer who might cast reasonable doubt on the verdict. I doubt repayment for wrongful imprisonment would make that worse.
Prosecutors might only take those cases, but they're not the ones making arrests. Police are. Once you are already in jail then, under the proposed scheme, the prosecutor's options become 1) let you out (drop charges) and expose the public purse to wrongful imprisonment damages, 2) take it to trial and lose, also exposing the public purse to the same damages, 3) take it to trial and win, which is expensive but at lea…
I’m sympathetic to the no-cash bail movement, though I’ll admit that there are a lot of edge cases to worry about. Plus, it may unfairly distort the calculation of who truly is a risk to release if you combine it with the possibility of suing for wrongful imprisonment on a not guilty verdict.
Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat
#123Is it possible to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment in the US? I know it is in Denmark. The logic being that it shouldn't be 'free' for the state to imprison someone wrongfully. In Denmark, you seek compensation after the fact. The exact compensation will depend on several variables, so I cannot give an exact figure. But I did find a case where a man was wrongfully imprisoned for five months, and got 141,000…
A few high payouts, and suddenly there's a push to... "protect taxpayers".
Basically, once again highlighting how, in the U.S., "justice" is really about money.
Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat
#124I know of no other countries that lock up this large a percentage of their population and then still manages to rival major war zones in terms of gun deaths per capita. It's offensive how ridiculously ineffective and cruel the US prison system is.
Here's the fix: abandon slave labor and bring back prisons under local government control fully funded out of tax money. Then allow local politicians to decide what is reasonable to do with that funding. The whole problem is simply that people are profiting from locking people up and bankrolling the whole process.
Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for. The system is rigged against the minorities. Look why cannabis was criminalized in the first place - to target blacks and hippies ( https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-... ). As a politician, keep as many of 'em in jails as you can, thus showing the white population you're "tough on crime" and at the same time filling the coffe…
This white against minorities narrative breaks down once you understand that ~80% of minorities are DNC voters[1] and Bill Clinton was the number one guy who f*ed them over the most with the infamous Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994[2]. 1. http://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-aff... 2. In a speech at an NAACP convention in Philadelphia in July, Clinton acknowledged that toughe…
Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
That would be a fair take on it. If you wrongfully imprison anyone, they get compensation. If all evidence points to them, but they was found not guilty, then they were wrongfully imprisoned and the intent and "why" doesn't really matter to that person.
This has its own potential problems. Prosecutors might be under even more pressure to get convictions or plea bargains, since the alternative, if somebody is already arrested and awaiting trial, is that their bosses (ultimately elected officials) have to shell out public money for a wrongful imprisonment case. Not saying the idea doesn't have merit, but all the moving parts and bizarre incentives of this system make…
Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat
#127Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
This has its own potential problems. Prosecutors might be under even more pressure to get convictions or plea bargains, since the alternative, if somebody is already arrested and awaiting trial, is that their bosses (ultimately elected officials) have to shell out public money for a wrongful imprisonment case. Not saying the idea doesn't have merit, but all the moving parts and bizarre incentives of this system make…
Being held in jail prior to a decision of guilty/not guilty wouldn’t be wrongful imprisonment.
Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
All European countries have a system that is sort-of a "reverse bail" problem. You can become a "civil party" to a complaint that you submit to the police. If you have money, you can force that complaint to get before a criminal judge, who is forced to ask you (the civil party) why you want this person criminally punished (e.g. jail), and listen to your response. So poor people cannot complain about things like gover…
> All European countries > criminal judge Almost all of Europe uses civil law, where there is no distinction between civil and criminal courts. > But a rich person can drag you in front of a criminal court for not wiping the pavement in front of your apartment often enough. > This is a bail system. The money you put down, you get back if the person gets convicted. This is far removed from reality as far as I am aware…
Obviously not true. In fact, this is so obviously wrong I don't know where to start.
Differences between civil and criminal courts:
* different hierarchy
* different powers (criminal court can, say, order imprisonment)
* different judges
* different parties (defendant vs prosecution for criminal, defendant vs complainant for civil court)
* different standards of proof
* different rights (e.g. the right to a jury trial in some countries)
Even this barely scratches the surface of the differences.
> This is far removed from reality as far as I am aware. Please provide sources.
Start reading here, it describes part of the procedure:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partie_civile_en_France
Google suggests this as an English alternative:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1468-2230....
(note there is "partie civile" and "action civile". They are NOT the same, aren't directly related. Specifically it is NOT the case that the "partie civile" is the complainant in an "action civile", as one might think. Keep reading)
The procedure is, generally speaking:
1) complain to the police, get a record or the complaint
2) with the record (which is a number), go to an "investigation judge" (no need to prove anything or ...), declare your intent to become "partie civile", register your lawyer, etc. He will tell you the amount of the "bail" for the case (which is going to be ~1000 euro. It differs from case to case, but not much)
3) pay the "bail" to the "griffe" (sort-of-kind-of the secretary of the court, they have an office in every courthouse) and register it
4) take said registration back to the judge you registered with, judge writes an order
5) write the prosecutor to deliver the order of the investigative judge
Now, the prosecutor is forced to bring the case before criminal court within a certain amount of time, and is forced to demand a nonzero punishment for whatever the complaint is (in fact this is one of the ways they get out from under it: they demand ridiculous punishments so the judge will rule against them).
The non-obvious and terrible thing for the victims of this system is misjudging the motivation of the police/prosecution (technically there is a distinction between the police and the people that do this, but it's essentially a different department of the same organization...). You might think the police will try to punish the guilty party, if there is one. That's technically true, but only in the following sense : they will try to get a conviction, and with this procedure REGARDLESS of their judgement there is a guilty party. If they think they can get a conviction, odds are VERY good they'll pursue seriously. Things that do NOT influence whether they pursue (and therefore do not influence whether you get convicted) include reasonableness, whether you're nice to the police, whether there's significant damages, whether anyone else was involved, whether the police promised not to do that (which they do, frankly almost always, then bring the case anyway and get the conviction), ...
An evil way to get ahead in elections in France: use this system to get your niece to complain against your competition, then point out (perfectly accurately) that your opponent is under investigation for terrible crime X. They will go free, eventually (or maybe not), but by that time it has long since stopped mattering.
Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Bail bondsmen?
I don't think people realize that when you pay a bondsman, you don't get that money back. Basically, you pay a bondsman to post bail for you. The bondsman then assumes the flight risk. Assuming you don't skip out of town, the bondsman gets to keep the money. Additionally, most jurisdictions don't allow you to post your own bail until certain conditions are met, but a bondsman can post bail immediately. This results i…
It's a pretty long story, but ultimately I paid the last $25 I had in my pocket to a clerk, and was released upon my own recognizance (Personal Recognizance). Ultimately ended up with community service; the case itself was rather interesting because the amount of product in my possession was so low the lab had trouble even verifying there was anything there. Officially charged with possessing 0.02g. You read that right. Less than a 10th of a gram.
For that and a couple of other reasons, I got pretty lucky getting out of there the way I did, and getting back home.