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Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

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Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#111
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> over 30 years getting arrested for minor shit all over the US Have you tried not spending three decades committing petty crimes "all over the US?" As for your original point - credit for time - you get 1.5x for time served. If you're sentenced to prison. If you spend weeks in jail but don't actually get sentenced to prison, there's nothing against which your time can be credited. Nobody's crediting jail time toward…

Why though? He was on worse than probation for the entire time he was in jail. Why doesn't that count as time served?

If you're incarcerated prior to sentencing, and you're sentenced to more incarceration, you get a little extra credit, such that a 1-month pre-sentencing incarceration prior to a year long sentence results in a ~10.5 month incarceration after.

Incarceration and probation are two completely different things, something that everyone knows and cubano's post conveniently ignores until the end. The point of the credit is so that you can spend less time in prison if you've already spent time in jail prior. It is not to get you out of the system faster so a credit toward probationary time doesn't make any sense.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This white against minorities narrative breaks down once you understand that ~80% of minorities are DNC voters[1] and Bill Clinton was the number one guy who f*ed them over the most with the infamous Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994[2]. 1. http://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-aff... 2. In a speech at an NAACP convention in Philadelphia in July, Clinton acknowledged that toughe…

The lack of options/failure of the political system does not disprove the narrative that there were/are racial motives behind some of the systems we live with today. "It can't be whites vs blacks, politicians that black people voted for did it too". When you actually write out your argument it doesn't make any sense. What if they were given two options, both of whom would have continued racist policies? There's also…

Nicely put. Your comment reminds me of Rubin and Summers ripping up Glass-Steagall at the end of the Clinton administration and the current uproar at attempts to get rid of some banking regulations.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#113
post #25

Is it possible to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment in the US? I know it is in Denmark. The logic being that it shouldn't be 'free' for the state to imprison someone wrongfully. In Denmark, you seek compensation after the fact. The exact compensation will depend on several variables, so I cannot give an exact figure. But I did find a case where a man was wrongfully imprisoned for five months, and got 141,000…

These sites tells you all one needs to know about government/police accountability in Denmark. A few examples: Several people died, about 10 years ago, between being arrested and arriving in prison. They were entirely healthy before, and showed signs of getting severely beaten. The state refused to even investigate the police officers involved, and none have received any punishment (or even had their names released).…

> The Danish government steals Jewellery of immigrants, and has that practice as a policy

Not exactly any immigrant. Only those that apply for asylum and need the state to provide them with accommodation and living expenses. Further, if they do not consent to the confiscation, the police must refer it to a court, and the court may decide to return the valuables. Also, when/if the asylum application is successful and they become self-sufficient, any remains of the confiscated valuables are returned.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#114
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prosecutors might only take those cases, but they're not the ones making arrests. Police are. Once you are already in jail then, under the proposed scheme, the prosecutor's options become 1) let you out (drop charges) and expose the public purse to wrongful imprisonment damages, 2) take it to trial and lose, also exposing the public purse to the same damages, 3) take it to trial and win, which is expensive but at lea…

> 1) let you out (drop charges) and expose the public purse to wrongful imprisonment damages, > 2) take it to trial and lose, also exposing the public purse to the same damages, If a doctor makes a mistake, he or she is liable (in addition to the hospital). In the case of wrongful imprisonment, there should be exposed liability for the officers too. They are the ones who make the judgement call to arrest someone base…

But it takes more than a simple mistake to be able to bring a suit against a doctor, doesn't it? If they misdiagnose, but reasonably, or if complications occur but the doctor was following reasonable medical methods, then they aren't liable, no?

If the police get a call that someone is being robbed, then pick someone up that matches the description that was jogging along a block away, the person may turn out to just be someone somewhat similar that was jogging. Imposing a penalty on the officers, department, prosecutors, etc for failing to convict this innocent person doesn't seem like something that would particularly improve the course of justice.

Certainly it would be an unfortunate situation, but I'm not sure it should be something actionable without showing the arrest itself was intended to harass them, rather than being a case of reasonable mistaken identity.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for. The system is rigged against the minorities. Look why cannabis was criminalized in the first place - to target blacks and hippies ( https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-... ). As a politician, keep as many of 'em in jails as you can, thus showing the white population you're "tough on crime" and at the same time filling the coffe…

I have heard this and always wondered what exactly is keeping people from doing drugs with lessers sentencing? For example, if crack-cocaine carries a high sentence, then why not drop the habit in exchange for powdered cocaine? If the question is price, then this is really more of a system targeting the poor than one that is against any specific minority group.

> If the question is price, then this is really more of a system targeting the poor than one that is against any specific minority group.

Well, if the majority of poor people are blacks (and Latinos), then it certainly is a racist policy to have vastly different sentencing for the drugs for poor and rich people.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#116
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of who? Danes?

Ack, sorry for being so unclear. I was thinking of the American underclasses most likely to be caught up in local jails and unable to afford bail.

Yea, if you could get $22,000 just for being detained in the US, there would be whole professions dedicated to setting people up for crimes while also leaving enough evidence of their innocence to get them acquitted.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#117
This article is incredibly misleading in numerous ways. You can find details on pretrial release, like all other issues related to the justice department from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. This [1] paper is extremely relevant.

The normal process in the US is that an individual's case will be seen by a judge within 24 hours of their detention and the judge will assign bail. Contrary to the media, the defendant is often not even present for this process. They will simply be pulled from their cell or detention area and informed what the judge decided. And in the vast majority of cases this is that the individual is released for 'free', or released on personal recognizance. Even in felony cases some 32% of individuals are released without financial condition. When bail is set, individuals can generally get out for 10% of that amount. In some cases they can do it directly through the court, and that 10% will be refunded once the individual returns to court and completes their trial. If not they can go to bail bondsmen who take the 10% as their profit margin, and pay 100% to the court themselves. The bailbonds companies then get their 100% back from the court once the defendant shows up and completes their trial. This is where modern day 'bounty hunting' can come into play -- the bail bondsmen have a strong incentive to ensure that their clients do not flee.

Bail tends to be set in relation to the criminal record of an individual, the seriousness of an offense, how much of a flight risk they are, and whether or not they're likely to be a danger to themselves or others if released. So for instance of all individuals with no prior convictions 77% are released, 63% of those with misdemeanor priors are released, but only 46% of those with felony priors are released. This is also why there are demographic differences in bails and release rates (age, gender, race, etc). Two individuals may commit the same crime, but when one has a criminal record and the other does not - there will be different outcomes. Articles typically try to spin this as prejudice (as this one did), but it is in no way shape or form prejudicial.

There are also statistics that can be used to, inadvertently, test how reliable detention vs release decisions are. In particular when there are emergency releases (such as because of jail overcrowding) where defendants who would not normally be released, are, about 52% end up being charged with some sort of pretrial misconduct. The rate for those who were intentionally released ranges from 27% to 36% depending on the release type. Anyhow, there's an immense amount of other actual information and data on that paper alone, including things like regression comparison of release rates vs reoffense rates to see if the systems in place are justified or not. And in some cases they are not, in some cases they are. I think it's reasonable to conclude that it's a system that does pretty well, but could be made better.

[1] - https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/prfdsc.pdf

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incentives for prosecutors though are off. They use high bail to leverage plea bargains & are judged on how well they accomplish that. Objective, non cash based determination of pretrial risk makes way more sense when judged through that lens.

Bail bondsmen?

I don't think people realize that when you pay a bondsman, you don't get that money back. Basically, you pay a bondsman to post bail for you. The bondsman then assumes the flight risk. Assuming you don't skip out of town, the bondsman gets to keep the money. Additionally, most jurisdictions don't allow you to post your own bail until certain conditions are met, but a bondsman can post bail immediately. This results in most people who are arrested having to pay a bondsman unless they are ok with sitting in jail a couple of days. I found myself in this exact situation when a clerical error caused my license to be suspended. I had to pay $700 just so I could go to work the next day. I never got that money back despite all charges being dropped. If I hadn't have had the $700 to pay the bondsman, I would have been stuck sitting in jail until I could have met with the right person (prosecutor?). This was going to take at a minimum, 2 days. Imagine being poor and in this situation.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ack, sorry for being so unclear. I was thinking of the American underclasses most likely to be caught up in local jails and unable to afford bail.

Yea, if you could get $22,000 just for being detained in the US, there would be whole professions dedicated to setting people up for crimes while also leaving enough evidence of their innocence to get them acquitted.

There would also be a push to get people through the system faster.
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