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Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

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Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#231

Post by nailer »

scarface74 wrote: post #217
cutler wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you're getting your information about Python from. It's popularity has skyrocketed in recent years. Search Indeed's API for title:python and location:London. 412 Python jobs compared with 278 for Node.js. What's also interesting is that there are currently 35% more Django jobs than Rails in London whilst at Angel.co they're about even.

Well, if I ever want to move to London... As I said, there are also plenty of PHP and WordPress jobs, but those aren't exactly paying top dollar either. If you have to tie your horse to something. It makes the most sense to tie it to JS. Until something takes over JS on the browser, it's going to stay marketable. Then you consider Node for the server and the frameworks that you can make good enough mobile apps with J…

As (primarily) a node user, there's way more data science an ML in Python than there is node.

If you're still tying your horse (and haven't already) it might be better to skate to where the puck is moving - Elixir would be a good example.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#232

Post by nailer »

munificent wrote: post #193
nailer wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google had paved some cowpaths: - CoffeeScript was hugely popular at the time - it was even mandatory at GitHub to make new applications in CS not JS - Typescript was immediately well recieved. JS folk liked optional typing. - Ruby was popular amongst the web community Google would have done a lot better than making a new road and wondering why there's nobody on it.

> - CoffeeScript was hugely popular at the time - it was even mandatory at GitHub to make new applications in CS not JS We'd probably really be regretting that choice since CoffeeScript use is dwindling and the programmer ecosystem has generally turned towards static types. > - Typescript was immediately well recieved. JS folk liked optional typing. Dart was an optionally typed language and is actually older than Typ…

> We'd probably really be regretting that choice since CoffeeScript use is dwindling

BecauseJS eventually got better and everyone moved to new versions and Babel. If you'd offered an alternative, maybe they would have moved to that.

> Dart was an optionally typed language and is actually older than TypeScript.

OK.

> Is the "was" part of that intentional?

Yep, a lot of Ruby folk moved to node, now they're in Elixir or Go.

> I think you have to aim for where you think users will be, otherwise you end up irrelevant by the time you launch.

I totally agree, but I think those cowpaths give you a good idea of where the ball is moving, particularly syntactically. And it doesn't seem like Dart paid any attention to that signal at all.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#233

Post by mraleph »

Maultasche wrote: post #181

I think that I would find Dart a lot more compelling if it emitted WebAssembly instead. There aren't a lot of languages that can compile to WebAssembly at the moment.

That's because compiling non-C++/Rust-like language to WASM is unpleasant and associated with completely unneccessary overheads.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#234

Post by cutler »

nailer wrote: post #231
scarface74 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if I ever want to move to London... As I said, there are also plenty of PHP and WordPress jobs, but those aren't exactly paying top dollar either. If you have to tie your horse to something. It makes the most sense to tie it to JS. Until something takes over JS on the browser, it's going to stay marketable. Then you consider Node for the server and the frameworks that you can make good enough mobile apps with J…

As (primarily) a node user, there's way more data science an ML in Python than there is node. If you're still tying your horse (and haven't already) it might be better to skate to where the puck is moving - Elixir would be a good example.

Which puck is that? There are very few Elixir jobs on most of the jobs boards I've seen and let's be fair - Elixir has now had long enough to build momentum. From the numbers I've seen Elixir clearly seems to have been eclipsed by Go.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#235

Post by leshow »

munificent wrote: post #176
leshow wrote: post #126

I'm really not a fan of Dart's type system. It feels ancient to me. From what I can tell, there's no sum types, I don't see any way to bound generics based on interface/typeclasses/traits or some other equivalent concept on the docs, it has no non-nullable types. Am I wrong? Why would I want to use a type system that lacks expressiveness?

> From what I can tell, there's no sum types Paraphrasing Qc Na: Subclasses are a poor man's sum type. Also, sum types are a poor man's subclasses. :) But, yes, some nicer notation for declaring a sealed family of types would be nice along the lines of case classes in Scala. It's something we've talked about a bunch but haven't had time to get to yet. > I don't see any way to bound generics based on interface/typecla…

> Paraphrasing Qc Na: Subclasses are a poor man's sum type. Also, sum types are a poor man's subclasses.

One of the great things about disjointed unions is (usually) exhaustiveness checking. Not to mention usually some form of pattern matching. Case classes would do the trick. It would be interesting to see those features in Dart, congrats on the release.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#236

Post by leshow »

EugeneOZ wrote: post #184
leshow wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A pointer is absolutely a type in rust. let i: u32 = 1; let p_imm: const u32 = &i; Look at the const u32 in the type position. The rust book even refers to const and mut pointers as types.

const and mut are not types, it's modifiers of mutability. On both lines type is u32z

The asterisk was formatted out. Read the book, they are types.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#237

Post by andrepd »

dexterjs wrote: post #183
andrepd wrote: post #182

>we were able to ship a full-featured experience that is fully interactive in one second on modern devices and under five seconds on a modest mobile device on a slow 3G network Somehow, loading a text newsfeed in less than 5 seconds is an achievement in lightweightness. Sigh.

So we are going to ignore the slow 3g network aspect in the quote you are referring to then. Sigh.

The very minimum admissible speed of 3G is 144kbps (barely faster than a 56k dialup, this is what we're talking about). The hn site should load in less than 3 seconds even on such an unrealistically slow network.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#238

Post by karmakaze »

I'm very interested in Dart with Flutter being a better React-native. I have no interest in the browser, having already bet once in v1/we components. There are already great js frameworks. One thing that could win me over is if a sensible, composible layout hierarchy is used that always outputs the needed CSS.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#239

Post by macspoofing »

ergothus wrote: post #136
macspoofing wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. In addition because Dart shared some superficial similarities with Java, some people just assumed it's Java and criticized the language for it. For example Dart variable declaration is of the form "String a" vs "var s:string" - the former syntax looks like Java so Dart must be Java. It certainly felt like people were willing to 'pile-on' criticism because they felt that JS ecosystem was threatened. The langu…

I think your points about Dart being treated unfairly are legit. OTOH, Google certainly invited criticism - early Google efforts on the web were VERY "let's make JavaScript into Java", and as the JS community matured this attitude was viewed with less and less favor. I think it's notable that the community that DID end up having strong influence in the JS world (Node & npm) had much more of a Ruby background than Jav…

>early Google efforts on the web were VERY "let's make JavaScript into Java"

That was never the case. Ever. Google was the first company to really take JavaScript seriously and launched the client-side JavaScript revolution with Maps and Gmail.

This criticism was leveled at Dart because as I argued, when Dart was launched some people (purposely) found certain parts of the syntax superficially resembled Java. It was also a time when front-end web devs haven't rediscovered the benefits of compile-time type checking (there was a time, believe it or not, when static typing was disparaged by frontend web-devs)

The irony is that Dart is a better language than JavaScript and the world would have benefitted had Dart become a browser standard (though Apple, Microsoft and Mozilla were never going to just accept a language designed by Google - so that was a pipe dream).

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#240

Post by scarface74 »

nailer wrote: post #231
scarface74 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if I ever want to move to London... As I said, there are also plenty of PHP and WordPress jobs, but those aren't exactly paying top dollar either. If you have to tie your horse to something. It makes the most sense to tie it to JS. Until something takes over JS on the browser, it's going to stay marketable. Then you consider Node for the server and the frameworks that you can make good enough mobile apps with J…

As (primarily) a node user, there's way more data science an ML in Python than there is node. If you're still tying your horse (and haven't already) it might be better to skate to where the puck is moving - Elixir would be a good example.

There are no jobs for Elixer in my market.

Python is definitely something I’m going to keep in my tool belt if for no other reason AWS, Boto3, and Python go hand in hand.

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