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Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

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Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#41

Post by duckerude »

squarefoot wrote: post #29
skate22 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A $50 ticket is not going to deter bill gates from speeding. The goal of a speeding ticket is not to collect $50, it is to save lives by detering people from speeding..

"The goal of a speeding ticket is not to collect $50, it is to save lives by detering people from speeding.." It was once, maybe. I wonder how many people are actually turned from minor offenders into full criminals by the current law/jail system. To me it looks like the goal is to operate an artificial selection on the human species to encourage those who help the economy more. That is, legalized Eugenics.

I think the goal of private prisons is to make more money (which is easier when spending less money and keeping prisoners longer, which also makes them more likely to re-offend), and the goal of politicians is to appear tough on crime and respond to lobbying (by private prisons).

Or something like that, anyway. Alignment of petty individual goals usually makes more sense than grand conspiracies.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#42

Post by candiodari »

Svip wrote: post #25

Is it possible to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment in the US? I know it is in Denmark. The logic being that it shouldn't be 'free' for the state to imprison someone wrongfully. In Denmark, you seek compensation after the fact. The exact compensation will depend on several variables, so I cannot give an exact figure. But I did find a case where a man was wrongfully imprisoned for five months, and got 141,000…

These sites tells you all one needs to know about government/police accountability in Denmark. A few examples:

Several people died, about 10 years ago, between being arrested and arriving in prison. They were entirely healthy before, and showed signs of getting severely beaten. The state refused to even investigate the police officers involved, and none have received any punishment (or even had their names released). Needless to say, and I'm sure completely coincidentally, a judge ruled the "lack of perpetrators" (hah!) prevents the state from getting sued from any wrongdoing.

The Danish government abducts children based on the say-so of a single government employee that isn't even a psychologist (this is policy), then has on several occasions the police beat up parents that attempt to file a complaint.

The Danish government steals Jewellery of immigrants, and has that practice as a policy (there is no other valid word for the practice, despite that it's "legal". It's stealing. No question whatsoever)

Denmark police officers beat up refugees being deported, then brag about it on social media. Needless to say: the state strongly objects to any punishment for these police officers.

Let's just not mention what the Danish state did to Inuit Indians in Greenland, on many, many occassions, including recently.

https://sites.google.com/site/thedanishtrap/best-of-nw-mom

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/denmark-jewe...

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/20/world/europe/denmark-refu...

The thing that you need to understand is that when push comes to shove, Denmark legitimately counts as a country where "this doesn't happen". Where the police behaves really well. That says a lot about how police forces and governments behave, irrespective of where they are and how they legitimize themselves. Denmark may not be the best country on police behavior, but it's probably in the top-10.

Every police force, every government, will abuse any power they have over people for the dumbest of reasons, every time, again and again and again. They must not be given one iota more power than absolutely necessary and need to be thoroughly checked at every turn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_brutality

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#43

Post by hvidgaard »

thechao wrote: post #38
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is but it is extremely rare. These are systemic problems, caused by the construction of the system itself and not due to bad actors. One problem is to have a successful suit against wrongful imprisonment, you have to prove intent. If somebody accidentally imprisoned you acting in good faith, the idea is that people make mistakes. There is automatic protection built into the system to allow prosecutors and LE to do…

I understand the situation as described. I do feel that many Americans (including myself) would be happier without intent: the imprisonment of a free person is a fundamental violation of constitutional rights and, regardless of intent, is a wrong, which should lead to compensation.

That would be a fair take on it. If you wrongfully imprison anyone, they get compensation. If all evidence points to them, but they was found not guilty, then they were wrongfully imprisoned and the intent and "why" doesn't really matter to that person.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#44

Post by deckiedan »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #35
Svip wrote: post #25

Is it possible to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment in the US? I know it is in Denmark. The logic being that it shouldn't be 'free' for the state to imprison someone wrongfully. In Denmark, you seek compensation after the fact. The exact compensation will depend on several variables, so I cannot give an exact figure. But I did find a case where a man was wrongfully imprisoned for five months, and got 141,000…

It is but it is extremely rare. These are systemic problems, caused by the construction of the system itself and not due to bad actors. One problem is to have a successful suit against wrongful imprisonment, you have to prove intent. If somebody accidentally imprisoned you acting in good faith, the idea is that people make mistakes. There is automatic protection built into the system to allow prosecutors and LE to do…

If the system is broken/to blame, then the system should be sued. What if the state had to pay compensation in cases of "honest" mistakes? Then the state would start having to try harder to not let innocents get imprisoned.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#45

Post by hvidgaard »

cs02rm0 wrote: post #36
IneffablePigeon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of those Switzerland-style fines based on wealth are to make sure that Bill Gates is punished the _same_ amount for the same crime, not more. It's just using a different measure of "amount of punishment" - in this case something based on proportion of wealth/income rather than a flat amount. That flat amount means a lot less to Bill Gates than someone who has $100 in savings. Having to rely on chariti…

So, if a $100 fine for someone with only $100 to their name is adjusted to punish Bill Gates the same amount... how much do you fine him? Every cent he has to his name? Because if you leave him with anything the punishment isn't the same. And what if he then commits a much more serious offence? I still think the whole concept is so flawed it's a farce.

The fine is based on x days of income in the last fiscal year, or perhaps an average over some years. It makes perfect sense.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#46

Post by sureaboutthis »

What is the alternative then? Let a probable criminal go wander the streets or disappear altogether? At least these people have some possibility of release rather than none at all.

While some innocents may be confined to a jail awaiting trial, I'm sure this is a minority, not the majority. Even then, bail skippers still occur. Let's quit with the "Oh the poor criminal being treated that way" mentality.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#47

Post by [deleted] »

StreamBright wrote: post #22
mschuster91 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for. The system is rigged against the minorities. Look why cannabis was criminalized in the first place - to target blacks and hippies ( https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-... ). As a politician, keep as many of 'em in jails as you can, thus showing the white population you're "tough on crime" and at the same time filling the coffe…

This white against minorities narrative breaks down once you understand that ~80% of minorities are DNC voters[1] and Bill Clinton was the number one guy who f*ed them over the most with the infamous Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994[2]. 1. http://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-aff... 2. In a speech at an NAACP convention in Philadelphia in July, Clinton acknowledged that toughe…

[deleted]

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#48

Post by DarkWiiPlayer »

guessthejuice wrote: post #28

I remember reading about this years ago. It's sad that this problem hasn't been resolved in all that time. We already have a legal system that advantages the wealthy ( more money for better lawyers, experts, etc ) over everyone else. But this bail problem is egregious and cruel. But it isn't the poor who created legal system. It isn't he poor who write laws.

The system isn't fundamentally flawed though. The problem starts when it's abused. When people are locked away regardless of whether or not there is any probability of them leaving the country or otherwise "disappearing" before their trial. Someone who has a family most likely won't do that, and there's no reason for them to go to prison until they have been proven guilty of a crime.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#49

Post by wongarsu »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #35
Svip wrote: post #25

Is it possible to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment in the US? I know it is in Denmark. The logic being that it shouldn't be 'free' for the state to imprison someone wrongfully. In Denmark, you seek compensation after the fact. The exact compensation will depend on several variables, so I cannot give an exact figure. But I did find a case where a man was wrongfully imprisoned for five months, and got 141,000…

It is but it is extremely rare. These are systemic problems, caused by the construction of the system itself and not due to bad actors. One problem is to have a successful suit against wrongful imprisonment, you have to prove intent. If somebody accidentally imprisoned you acting in good faith, the idea is that people make mistakes. There is automatic protection built into the system to allow prosecutors and LE to do…

Establishing guilt and intent doesn't seem like a good approach here, or at least it shouldn't be the usual approach. Wrongful imprisonment should trigger an automatic payout from the institution imprisoning you. Then allow a court case to establish if the case deserves a higher than normal payout because of the specific circumstances.

If these payouts are large enough they create pressure to both solve systematic problems and to punish individuals who cause abnormally high rates of wrongful imprisonment.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#50

Post by dismantlethesun »

loa-in-backup wrote: post #21
dismantlethesun wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ultimate goal is not to collect $100, it's for the offender to not reoffend. If that is the ultimate goal, then fine equitable punishment would include fines targeting versus ability to pay. However, if the system is simply seeking recompense for an action then it is unfair to place a higher fine on someone simply because they have more money. For traffic offenses such as speeding, perhaps stopping re-offending…

The discussion is about bails which are given back if you show up to court.

It seems to me that the discussion diverged quite a bit from the original posting.

The two replies above mine in this thread are talking about speeding offenses, which is the thread of discussion that I am responding to.

I appreciate your trying to bring it back to the original posting, but your reply is a bit too deep within the thread to be effective.

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