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Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

globalcitizen.org

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Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#21

Post by loa-in-backup »

dismantlethesun wrote: post #20
masklinn wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If one person gets their life savings cleared out for a $100 speeding fine, how do you equate that financial pain to Bill Gates? Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company? He's not punished "more", he's punished equitably . The ultimate goal is not to collect $100, it's for the offender to not reoffend. Disposable income is an actual object…

> The ultimate goal is not to collect $100, it's for the offender to not reoffend. If that is the ultimate goal, then fine equitable punishment would include fines targeting versus ability to pay. However, if the system is simply seeking recompense for an action then it is unfair to place a higher fine on someone simply because they have more money. For traffic offenses such as speeding, perhaps stopping re-offending…

The discussion is about bails which are given back if you show up to court.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#22

Post by StreamBright »

mschuster91 wrote: post #8
titzer wrote: post #4

This is horrible. Instead of bail, they should just have steeper fines for failure to appear and yet on the flipside the same guarantees afforded to jury duty as far as employment (i.e. can't be fired for having to appear in court). That would allow poorer people to keep their jobs and still be present for court dates. Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for.

> Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for. The system is rigged against the minorities. Look why cannabis was criminalized in the first place - to target blacks and hippies ( https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-... ). As a politician, keep as many of 'em in jails as you can, thus showing the white population you're "tough on crime" and at the same time filling the coffe…

This white against minorities narrative breaks down once you understand that ~80% of minorities are DNC voters[1] and Bill Clinton was the number one guy who f*ed them over the most with the infamous Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994[2].

1. http://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-aff...

2. In a speech at an NAACP convention in Philadelphia in July, Clinton acknowledged that tougher incarceration provisions in the bill were a mistake. “I signed a bill that made the problem worse,” Clinton said. “And I want to admit it.”

I think this issue has many different angles than just the usual whites vs. minorities.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#23

Post by kasey_junk »

Ntrails wrote: post #18
titzer wrote: post #4

This is horrible. Instead of bail, they should just have steeper fines for failure to appear and yet on the flipside the same guarantees afforded to jury duty as far as employment (i.e. can't be fired for having to appear in court). That would allow poorer people to keep their jobs and still be present for court dates. Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for.

The problem with a fine for failure to appear is that you have to find the person to make them pay. The assumption being that if you're skipping out on a court case you're probably doing so with the intention of never attending, and a fine they can't enforce isn't going to make a difference. The logic behind bail is simple, you either show up to court or lose money that you cannot afford to lose. The incentives make…

The incentives for prosecutors though are off. They use high bail to leverage plea bargains & are judged on how well they accomplish that. Objective, non cash based determination of pretrial risk makes way more sense when judged through that lens.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#24

Post by jacobr »

Sweden actually has a similar problem even without the bail system. Most people get released awaiting trial, depending on severity of the crime, risk of influencing the case, etc. The ones who don't end up incarcerated with way worse conditions than regular prisons while waiting for the trial. You might end up with a sentence of 1 year after already spending most of it in an insitution with limited visitation rights, none of the rehabilitation, education and leisure available in regular prisons.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#25

Post by Svip »

Is it possible to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment in the US? I know it is in Denmark. The logic being that it shouldn't be 'free' for the state to imprison someone wrongfully.

In Denmark, you seek compensation after the fact. The exact compensation will depend on several variables, so I cannot give an exact figure. But I did find a case where a man was wrongfully imprisoned for five months, and got 141,000 DKK (~22,000 USD) in compensation. Although, the case noted he had sought 500,000 DKK in compensation.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#26

Post by jdietrich »

cs02rm0 wrote: post #5
captainbland wrote: post #2

I think that if there are financial penalties - or similar in the case of bail - they have to be adjusted to means (don't get me wrong, this can be a challenge in itself). Otherwise you're basically saying that something is legal for the rich who could easily make the bail or the fine, but illegal for somebody poor who cannot make the fine which can have ever worse consequences. Why should that be?

If one person gets their life savings cleared out for a $100 speeding fine, how do you equate that financial pain to Bill Gates? Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company? You end up with silly (IMHO) situations like someone getting a $290k fine in Switzerland for 85mph in a 50 zone. 6 months in jail for someone who can't afford a $1k bail is…

>I'm pretty certain in the UK we have charities that help people out in such situations

We rarely use financial bail conditions except in the most serious cases. Financial conditions are mainly used where a) there are grounds to believe that the defendant has substantial funds at their disposal and b) there are grounds to believe that the defendant has a significant risk of absconding. It's a likely option if you're accused of robbing a bank or running a major drug dealing operation, but it's far from the default option.

If you're bailed, there will be conditions attached to mitigate the particular risks in your case. You might be required to report to a police station every week or every day to confirm that you're complying with your bail requirements. You might be placed under curfew with an electronic tag. You might be forbidden from going to certain places or speaking to certain people. You might have to surrender your passport. You might be required to live in a bail hostel. The court has to demonstrate that those conditions are proportionate and necessary, and you have the right to appeal their decision.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#27

Post by Ntrails »

kasey_junk wrote: post #23
Ntrails wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with a fine for failure to appear is that you have to find the person to make them pay. The assumption being that if you're skipping out on a court case you're probably doing so with the intention of never attending, and a fine they can't enforce isn't going to make a difference. The logic behind bail is simple, you either show up to court or lose money that you cannot afford to lose. The incentives make…

The incentives for prosecutors though are off. They use high bail to leverage plea bargains & are judged on how well they accomplish that. Objective, non cash based determination of pretrial risk makes way more sense when judged through that lens.

Completely agree, the article makes a nice coherent argument for why it's actually created a horrific situation for those near the poverty line.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#28

Post by guessthejuice »

I remember reading about this years ago. It's sad that this problem hasn't been resolved in all that time.

We already have a legal system that advantages the wealthy ( more money for better lawyers, experts, etc ) over everyone else. But this bail problem is egregious and cruel.

But it isn't the poor who created legal system. It isn't he poor who write laws.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#29

Post by squarefoot »

skate22 wrote: post #12
cs02rm0 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If one person gets their life savings cleared out for a $100 speeding fine, how do you equate that financial pain to Bill Gates? Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company? You end up with silly (IMHO) situations like someone getting a $290k fine in Switzerland for 85mph in a 50 zone. 6 months in jail for someone who can't afford a $1k bail is…

A $50 ticket is not going to deter bill gates from speeding. The goal of a speeding ticket is not to collect $50, it is to save lives by detering people from speeding..

"The goal of a speeding ticket is not to collect $50, it is to save lives by detering people from speeding.."

It was once, maybe. I wonder how many people are actually turned from minor offenders into full criminals by the current law/jail system. To me it looks like the goal is to operate an artificial selection on the human species to encourage those who help the economy more. That is, legalized Eugenics.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#30

Post by arethuza »

StreamBright wrote: post #22
mschuster91 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for. The system is rigged against the minorities. Look why cannabis was criminalized in the first place - to target blacks and hippies ( https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-... ). As a politician, keep as many of 'em in jails as you can, thus showing the white population you're "tough on crime" and at the same time filling the coffe…

This white against minorities narrative breaks down once you understand that ~80% of minorities are DNC voters[1] and Bill Clinton was the number one guy who f*ed them over the most with the infamous Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994[2]. 1. http://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-aff... 2. In a speech at an NAACP convention in Philadelphia in July, Clinton acknowledged that toughe…

How likely are those people to vote Republican though? If there is little change of that then introducing a harsh new law might win more votes than it would lose.
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