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False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

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Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#41

The real problem with higher education is really how we finance it. Give the lenders the ability to discriminate based on major and borrowers the ability to default easier and all of a sudden you’ve got some banks seriously motivated to ensure students get economic return on their investments. Besides, it just shouldn’t take a decade or more for someone to discharge a bad debt. Student debt seems uniquely oppressive…

Or instead, like most other advanced societies, we could stop trying to quantify higher education in purely personal economic return on investment grounds and consider an educated populace a public good.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#42

The real problem with higher education is really how we finance it. Give the lenders the ability to discriminate based on major and borrowers the ability to default easier and all of a sudden you’ve got some banks seriously motivated to ensure students get economic return on their investments. Besides, it just shouldn’t take a decade or more for someone to discharge a bad debt. Student debt seems uniquely oppressive…

That's how you get nothing but science and engineering majors, because most other majors don't have the ROI on average. But society is probably better off with some history and art majors too.

We need to find a way to finance education that isn't based on future income.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#43
post #15

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schooling only helps people who would succeed anyways. Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. To not be too harsh, there are many students over their head in life (debts, rel…

> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about? Have you considered that maybe this isn't a problem with the students but a problem with society and the very problem with the education institutions and teachers like you that are just basically feeding on them? It's far easier (and economically viable in a shortsighted way) to blame students for their s…

> Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about?

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

I taught EFL at a high school for 5 years. Being a good teacher takes a lot of experience, inspiration and hard work. It is a very, very difficult job. When I was doing it, I often thought how much easier it is to explain things to a computer compared to a person -- especially when the person is often doing everything they can to avoid listening to you ;-)

I don't want to diminish the role of a teacher because there is a huge difference between a good teacher and a bad teacher. It's just that there comes a point where you have to realise that the best you can do is to create an environment where it is possible for the students to learn. Everything else is up to the student.

The OP's point is very correct that of students who succeed, the vast majority would have succeeded even without the teacher. In those cases, the teacher may create a more pleasant environment, or may provide a convenient filtering of information. But there are very few disciplines where a good text book and a place to practice aren't enough. Where foreign languages are concerned, you don't even need the text book!

I fairly quickly realised that my "value add" in the classroom was to help those people who were borderline. There are always some people who are eager to work, but are constantly at a loss about how to start. In my experience, this is a very small percentage of the class (maybe only 10%), but you can make a big difference as a teacher to these students.

The real problem is where the teacher is placed in an environment where they are unable to concentrate on those students. For example, I often had classes of 42 students. For a language class, that's horrible. I can actually manage with 20, but if you get up over 30, it becomes impossible to spend enough time with the people who need it.

Of course, just like high school (which is filled with students who don't want to be there), undergraduate courses have massive numbers of students who are hopelessly uninterested in studying. There was a time when "university" was aimed at a very small number of very keen students. You had lectures with less than 10 other students and had tutors who helped you work your way through the ridiculously large amount of material that you had to learn. But such organisations are never going to fund a proper football programme, and what is the poor NFL going to do to train their players? ;-)

I mean your point is completely fair: society should take its share of the blame. However, consider who makes up society? The very people who think it is completely reasonable to drift from high school to university, take a bunch of random courses, and party every day. These same people whose career plans are to take their gold stamp for having sat through 4 years of boring lectures and exchange it for a "good job" (TM), which will bring them a very high salary but will have completely unspecified content.

Although, contrary to my rant, one of the things I really like about code boot camps is that it allows people to "wake up" from their delusion. After getting a general degree in "business" with specialisation in making unnecessarily complicated Excel spreadsheets, and working as a drone in the financial industry for 2 years, suddenly some people think, "OMG! Programming is amazing. What the heck have I been doing with my life?". Some of the best people I've worked with recently have come a similar route.

So it would be extremely great if we could help society get over this expectation of mediocrity and start making universities that are centres of higher learning. However, a teacher in a classroom is up to their ears wrestling with extremely unfortunate social dynamics and doesn't have very much time to change the world.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#44
post #42

The real problem with higher education is really how we finance it. Give the lenders the ability to discriminate based on major and borrowers the ability to default easier and all of a sudden you’ve got some banks seriously motivated to ensure students get economic return on their investments. Besides, it just shouldn’t take a decade or more for someone to discharge a bad debt. Student debt seems uniquely oppressive…

That's how you get nothing but science and engineering majors, because most other majors don't have the ROI on average. But society is probably better off with some history and art majors too. We need to find a way to finance education that isn't based on future income.

Well there's quite a few progressive European countries which it might be worth the USA having a look at

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#45
post #13

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schooling only helps people who would succeed anyways. Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. To not be too harsh, there are many students over their head in life (debts, rel…

> also which a school can do little to help with. I think I disagree with you there. Debt - Schools could do better at financial assistance and in helping students better manage their finances. Relationship/mental issues - Schools could provide or increase their access to counselors/therapists. Peer mental health support is also becoming an attractive option. All of this being said, I'm not arguing that schools shoul…

why should a college offer therapists? that is not their job. a college should have a medic for emergencies and for all other things the student can go to a doctor's office that specializes in their issue

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life happens and honestly I didn't give a shit about finishing up at 36 years old. The shiny degree wouldn't have made a difference in my life. And after helping in the hiring process and reading countless resumes I don't even skim the education section. I am not going to be impressed by the diploma. I will be impressed by relevant factors related to working with you. And seriously, trying to convince a college stude…

...what!? A semester was 30k USD? My entire two degrees was maybe 25k CAD. Why would anyone ever in the right mind even try to go to school if it costs that much? Surely you meant 3k. You can't possibly get a credit limit for 30... Good God I hope not... Can you?

A semester at any old American university could be $30k, especially for out of state tuition.

It's pretty easy to get $30k+ credit limits, I have two cards with over $40k limits (I do points milling/never carry a balance). If I were to max my total credit limit on all cards and pay minimum payments it would take 86 years to pay off.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#47
post #42

The real problem with higher education is really how we finance it. Give the lenders the ability to discriminate based on major and borrowers the ability to default easier and all of a sudden you’ve got some banks seriously motivated to ensure students get economic return on their investments. Besides, it just shouldn’t take a decade or more for someone to discharge a bad debt. Student debt seems uniquely oppressive…

That's how you get nothing but science and engineering majors, because most other majors don't have the ROI on average. But society is probably better off with some history and art majors too. We need to find a way to finance education that isn't based on future income.

Well it's also how you have a globally competitive workforce that can experience wage growth. We have a shortage and companies are outsourcing for good paying jobs because we aren't prepping enough people for the market.

There are some that can't get scholarships or even into universities in their state for engineering because there aren't enough spots. The no return majors take up resources and funding and leave countless people in debt they can't pull out of for a long time.

We don't have a shortage of history and art majors or lawyers and also, real artists would be a better investment than art majors anyway. No need for the debt. Just invest in the talent for society to thrive and be balanced.

> We need to find a way to finance education that isn't based on future income.

This already happens. One example - We have collegiate sports revenue financing no return liberal art degrees directly or indirectly via scholarships.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#48
post #45
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> also which a school can do little to help with. I think I disagree with you there. Debt - Schools could do better at financial assistance and in helping students better manage their finances. Relationship/mental issues - Schools could provide or increase their access to counselors/therapists. Peer mental health support is also becoming an attractive option. All of this being said, I'm not arguing that schools shoul…

why should a college offer therapists? that is not their job. a college should have a medic for emergencies and for all other things the student can go to a doctor's office that specializes in their issue

And why is it a college's "job" to have a medic for emergencies? Isn't that what emergency rooms are for, along with ambulances?

It seems as if your opinion is that a college should have a baseline minimum for protecting students. Some think that minimum should encompass mental health, or financial education.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a teacher, how do you handle these students? Many people don't believe in working hard today for having a better life tomorrow. They think they might as well get stuck by lightening and die. Should we blame them for this kind of thinking? This why the idea of a weflare state seems to saddle the ones who work with more work at the expense of those who are not willing to do anything. Today, the ones who get most b…

> Today, the ones who get most benefit from the social system act indifferent to the soceity need and refuse to contribute. Look at the Panama Papers and all of the off shore banks, the Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich, etc. As a percentage of income per individual, these are the the folks that benefit the most and contribute the least to society by several orders of magnitude. Subsidies, bailouts, elaborate tax ev…

> these are the the folks that benefit the most and contribute the least to society by several orders of magnitude

Let's not assume there are only 2 groups, one rich/evil and other poor/victims.

There are also rich who contribute positively to the soceity at large.

I've no problem with with poor people who contribute their share.

There are also poor people who negatively contribute to the soceity.

Money is not the only way people contribute. Social interactions/behaviour/attitude also matter.

Are rich people shitting on BART escalator?

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#50

I think that most people shouldn't aspire to go to college. They should learn a trade instead in order to become a plumber, carpenter, electrician, or car mechanic. There are lots of occupations that don't require a college degree, yet provide a solid paycheck without the crushing mass of student debt accrued in the pursuit of a useless degree. Michael Bloomberg himself said it best: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2…

That implies that college is only important for skill transfer towards an occupation. Historically, part of college was to help an individual grow personally and intellectually, to learn not just what to think, but how to think clearly, in order to better engage with civil society as an active participant. It's always a little off-putting when I see people suggest that higher education is just for a job, and discount…

The viewpoint that college is a place for vocational education seems to be a very common viewpoint here on HN, a similar viewpoint seems to be that it's normal and easy to pack your life up and relocate so XYZ city because cost of living is low and wages are high, or some other reason. I guess being a tech-centred community this is to be expected.

I don't know about others, but for me university was an important experience as a place where I could grow as a person. It's a time where you get a few years to figure it all out before you spend the next 45 years working. Even if I could've done a 1 year course and then jumped straight into working full time, I wouldn't want to do that, and I don't think people should necessarily do that. There's more to life than getting a good qualification and getting a job that pays well.

I earn more than practically everybody in my friend group, yet I'm no happier than they are. I'm not more fulfilled in my life because I have a piece of paper that says I'm good with computers.

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