False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm • Hacker News Board

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#21

Post by learc83 » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:45 AM UTC

paulie_a wrote: post #16

epmaybe wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> also which a school can do little to help with. I think I disagree with you there. Debt - Schools could do better at financial assistance and in helping students better manage their finances. Relationship/mental issues - Schools could provide or increase their access to counselors/therapists. Peer mental health support is also becoming an attractive option. All of this being said, I'm not arguing that schools shoul…

I had a financial counselor at my college suggest I a put the last semester on a credit card. Fuck that woman, she is terrible person for even suggesting that. I dropped out in my final semester and quite frankly it hasn't mattered. College is insanely expensive, and at the end of the day for some careers is a waste of time.

A degree vs no degree for 1 semester's tuition? Yeah I'd advise most people to put it on a credit card too if that was the only option.

Over your lifetime, it will matter to the vast majority of people. For 1 semester's tuition, it's worth it just to get past HR filters.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#22

Post by topmonk » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:45 AM UTC

hmwhy wrote: post #15

RobertRoberts wrote: post #4

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schooling only helps people who would succeed anyways. Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. To not be too harsh, there are many students over their head in life (debts, rel…

> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about? Have you considered that maybe this isn't a problem with the students but a problem with society and the very problem with the education institutions and teachers like you that are just basically feeding on them? It's far easier (and economically viable in a shortsighted way) to blame students for their s…

Armchair critic

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#23

Post by ppseafield » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:52 AM UTC

hmwhy wrote: post #15

RobertRoberts wrote: post #4

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schooling only helps people who would succeed anyways. Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. To not be too harsh, there are many students over their head in life (debts, rel…

> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about? Have you considered that maybe this isn't a problem with the students but a problem with society and the very problem with the education institutions and teachers like you that are just basically feeding on them? It's far easier (and economically viable in a shortsighted way) to blame students for their s…

I don't agree 100% with the OP, but there are some students that are indeed just net negatives on the class and in general.

My state used to pay 100% of your state college tuition if you maintained a 3.0 GPA. A lot of students in my freshman dorm stayed until the 30 hour re-evaluation period and then disappeared forever. They partied, never went to class, never studied, and withdrew from most of their classes. They'd regularly fall asleep in or oversleep for 11:00 classes.

As a teacher, how do you handle these students? Many of them have not been raised to be on their own, and college is the first time they're let "off the leash". They're unprepared to be independent adults.

Additionally some students fail the same class over and over, then keep retaking the class with no improvement. They keep asking the same questions, slow down the class, and make it more difficult for everyone else to learn.

As a teacher how do you handle these students? Maybe you've already failed them twice. Maybe you've had extensive study groups, office hours, extra credit materials for these people, but they continue to do poorly. Some of them you suspect have learning disabilities or other mental problems that may always interfere with their ability to take your class.

(Later the state college system changed it to 80% tuition for 3.5 GPA, and at least my college mandated a maximum of 5 withdrawls, which cut down on the problem some.)

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#24

Post by stealthmodeclan » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:54 AM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #4

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schooling only helps people who would succeed anyways. Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. To not be too harsh, there are many students over their head in life (debts, rel…

> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them

Rich can have unmotivated kid and poor can have motivated kids and vice-versa.

Those who can't succeed, schools can still accept fees from them and create a larger pool of resources which those who 'can do' can leverage at expense of those who can't.

Wether it's good or bad - it's for the society to decide.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#25

Post by zdragnar » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:54 AM UTC

hmwhy wrote: post #15

RobertRoberts wrote: post #4

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schooling only helps people who would succeed anyways. Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. To not be too harsh, there are many students over their head in life (debts, rel…

> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about? Have you considered that maybe this isn't a problem with the students but a problem with society and the very problem with the education institutions and teachers like you that are just basically feeding on them? It's far easier (and economically viable in a shortsighted way) to blame students for their s…

I've found the same to be true for mentoring junior programmers. Those who treat it as just a job rarely advance their abilities. Those who are genuinely interested in learning grew.

I've always disliked the verb "teach" because it implies that it is something I can do to you, when really all I can do is nurture, facilitate or provide a framework for you to learn.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#26

Post by stealthmodeclan » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 5:00 AM UTC

ppseafield wrote: post #23

hmwhy wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about? Have you considered that maybe this isn't a problem with the students but a problem with society and the very problem with the education institutions and teachers like you that are just basically feeding on them? It's far easier (and economically viable in a shortsighted way) to blame students for their s…

I don't agree 100% with the OP, but there are some students that are indeed just net negatives on the class and in general. My state used to pay 100% of your state college tuition if you maintained a 3.0 GPA. A lot of students in my freshman dorm stayed until the 30 hour re-evaluation period and then disappeared forever. They partied, never went to class, never studied, and withdrew from most of their classes. They'd…

> As a teacher, how do you handle these students?

Many people don't believe in working hard today for having a better life tomorrow.

They think they might as well get stuck by lightening and die. Should we blame them for this kind of thinking?

This why the idea of a weflare state seems to saddle the ones who work with more work at the expense of those who are not willing to do anything.

Today, the ones who get most benefit from the social system act indifferent to the soceity's need and refuse to contribute.

Maybe best system is one where everyone is left to fend for themselves and receive no help from government or society?

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#27

Post by _hardwaregeek » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 5:10 AM UTC

It's extremely hard to get good, unbiased information on colleges. Almost every news source is either based on metrics that students don't care about (number of papers published by the department, NSF grants, etc), or basically advertising done by the school itself. If there was a way to get information about schools, stuff like "oh XYZ college has really great campus life" or "ABC college has an amazing hackathon community" or even "oh this school's food sucks", then I think it would be immensely popular. The only (but main) problem is convincing college students to contribute.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#28

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 5:13 AM UTC

hmwhy wrote: post #15

RobertRoberts wrote: post #4

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schooling only helps people who would succeed anyways. Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. To not be too harsh, there are many students over their head in life (debts, rel…

> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about? Have you considered that maybe this isn't a problem with the students but a problem with society and the very problem with the education institutions and teachers like you that are just basically feeding on them? It's far easier (and economically viable in a shortsighted way) to blame students for their s…

[deleted]

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#29

Post by stealthmodeclan » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 5:14 AM UTC

hmwhy wrote: post #15

RobertRoberts wrote: post #4

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schooling only helps people who would succeed anyways. Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. To not be too harsh, there are many students over their head in life (debts, rel…

> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about? Have you considered that maybe this isn't a problem with the students but a problem with society and the very problem with the education institutions and teachers like you that are just basically feeding on them? It's far easier (and economically viable in a shortsighted way) to blame students for their s…

> Have you considered that maybe this isn't a problem with the students but a problem with society and the very problem with the education institutions and teachers like you that are just basically feeding on them?

I've lots of experience in teaching mathematics to students of all age. I believe how well you can be taught exclusively depends on your genetics and the environment you are brought up in.

Not everyone can succeed, not even majority of them can succeed.

You can simply filter students at the lowest level to manipulate the propotion of students who are succeeding.

Since then I've stopped teaching and went to start my own business.

If you really want to help them, leave them to fend for themselves and let the evolution make them fit for survival.

Anything done to screw with the nature will bite you back.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#30

Post by ppseafield » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 5:21 AM UTC

stealthmodeclan wrote: post #26

ppseafield wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree 100% with the OP, but there are some students that are indeed just net negatives on the class and in general. My state used to pay 100% of your state college tuition if you maintained a 3.0 GPA. A lot of students in my freshman dorm stayed until the 30 hour re-evaluation period and then disappeared forever. They partied, never went to class, never studied, and withdrew from most of their classes. They'd…

> As a teacher, how do you handle these students? Many people don't believe in working hard today for having a better life tomorrow. They think they might as well get stuck by lightening and die. Should we blame them for this kind of thinking? This why the idea of a weflare state seems to saddle the ones who work with more work at the expense of those who are not willing to do anything. Today, the ones who get most b…

> Today, the ones who get most benefit from the social system act indifferent to the soceity need and refuse to contribute.

Look at the Panama Papers and all of the off shore banks, the Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich, etc. As a percentage of income per individual, these are the the folks that benefit the most and contribute the least to society by several orders of magnitude. Subsidies, bailouts, elaborate tax evasion schemes, government guaranteed student loans. This is the real "welfare state". People on food stamps don't even scratch the surface in comparison.