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Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

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Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#281

Post by bit_logic »

A carbon tax combined with excess green energy could cause some unexpected results. Currently, most assume that EV cars are the future. However, there are companies working on processes that can convert CO2 from the air + energy + water into synthetic fuel. There are already working examples of this such as the Canadian company Carbon Engineering. If the energy is green (such as excess solar/wind) this fuel would be basically carbon neutral and exempt from any carbon tax. The process would be economically viable because the carbon tax would raise the price of oil from traditional fossil sources. But the increased price of oil would make a carbon neutral synthetic process like this viable at the same time.

If this happens, the EV car becomes much less competitive. From a pure efficiency view, EV is still much more efficient. But there is a lot of existing infrastructure supporting carbon fuel and billions of cars. This synthetic fuel would immediately fit into that. If there's a heavy carbon tax, can EV complete successfully against a carbon neutral synthetic fuel?

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#282

Post by adrianN »

bit_logic wrote: post #281

A carbon tax combined with excess green energy could cause some unexpected results. Currently, most assume that EV cars are the future. However, there are companies working on processes that can convert CO2 from the air + energy + water into synthetic fuel. There are already working examples of this such as the Canadian company Carbon Engineering. If the energy is green (such as excess solar/wind) this fuel would be…

Yes they can because they don't cause air pollution in cities. Air quality standards are only getting stricter.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#283

Post by bacon_waffle »

ksolanki wrote: post #278
eloff wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Desalinization isn't a good example for the reasons you say, but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better. Since water once heated stays hot for a good while in the insulated storage tank. Also buildings can be heated with hot water instead of forced air, typically through pipes in the floor. Which is nicer because it keeps your feet toasty and doesn't dry out the…

This is insightful. The solution is probably to have a spot market for electricity that is accessible via an API so that smart AC or fridge or electric car charger can make use of it. This will encourage market for devices that can utilize the lower spot prices dynamically and keep the things more efficient overall (in steady state).

We've got these in New Zealand - once you have a "smart meter" (which I believe most homes now have), then you can pick an electricity retailer like https://www.flickelectric.co.nz that bills you according to the current price. Flick provides an API to allow you to turn on/off loads when you see fit.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#284

Post by adrianN »

xigma wrote: post #88
nostrademons wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's likely a short-term problem. There are plenty of ways to fix it (besides the one you mention, just shut down coal & oil power plants for good and replace them with technologies like natural gas or hydro that can easily react to spikes in demand), but all of the fixes require capital investments and time to build factories & tooling. Basically this is a problem because a bunch of existing incumbents are probably…

> Basically this is a problem because a bunch of existing incumbents are probably going to go bankrupt, or at least have to write down a lot of capital equipment and invest in new technologies. That's not how it works. In Germany, the government subsidizes farmers to put up Windfarms, then forces the electric companies to buy the electricity at an inflated price, which those companies charge their customers for. As a…

It's not utter nonsense because it provides a much more stable market for companies building renewable energy plants and allows them to finance research and development. A lot of the improvements in solar energy technology were financed thanks to this scheme.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#285

Post by lazyjones »

milcron wrote: post #44
maerF0x0 wrote: post #5

> It’s left the utilities complaining that they can’t earn the returns they expected for their investment in generation capacity. Good. That's a well functioning market economy. Those who make poor investment choices need to feel the sting of losses else the market fails to work correctly.

Electricity isn't a great market. End-users with solar power are allowed to use the grid as a perfectly free battery, which is why everyone is dumping power on the grid at high noon.

End-users who produce electricity aren‘t a problem for the grid, they produce electricity very close to where it‘s mostly consumed (typically they consume most of it themselves). Wind farms on the other hand are built where it‘s cheapest and yields are best, often far away from any relevant consumers.

With their own batteries for 24h+ (soon...), end-users will be the best thing that can happen to the grid.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#286

Post by nostrademons »

pure_ambition wrote: post #261
nostrademons wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article suggests that solar + wind with natgas for peaks is exactly where we're headed. At least in the regions being talked about (mostly Europe + California). The Forbes article you linked is about New England. New England will probably be the last region to get decent renewable adoption. Solar panels don't work as well because they're far north and get a number of cloudy days, the winds are not that strong out…

> New England will probably be the last region to get decent renewable adoption. Solar panels don't work as well because they're far north and get a number of cloudy days... Wrong. Most of Europe (especially Germany) is actually at a higher latitude than New England.

...but tends to be windier. My understanding is that renewable use in Germany is largely driven by wind power.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#287

Post by dalyons »

matt4077 wrote: post #275
rwcarlsen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low/negative prices (caused largely by various regulation/policies) have been putting a lot of economic pressure on existing nuclear power generation - sometimes causing it to close [1]. Generation that is largely replaced by natural gas plants. So maybe this very non-free-market state is actually not helping make forward progress on what many would consider to be one of the most important issues relating to energy -…

HN seems to have some macho fascination with nuclear power. Or at least that's the only reason I can think of why people would advocate for it, considering nuclear power is simply far too expensive. Yes, maybe the population at large lacks statistical understanding and needlessly fears nuclear power[0]. But it's still too expensive, as demonstrated by the complete lack of new construction. It'd be rather strange for…

I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted, it’s 100% about cost. It’s far too expensive, and the ROI horizons are far too long (multiple decades)

Edit: and that’s only if you cut a nice deal where the state picks up the insurance tab, because private insurance markets aren’t going to.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#288

Post by rmetzler »

yayana wrote: post #98
DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

I think Pumped Hydroelectric Storage is what you are looking for. I've seen a few of them here in Switzerland. I think many were originally built out with the train system's grid for it's reliably scheduled low and high capacity times. http://energystorage.org/energy-storage/technologies/pumped-...

There is a video in German on youtube where Prof. Hans Werner Sinn explains, why Germany can't store the excessive amounts of renewable energy in Pumped Hydroelectric Storage. You would need too much storage capacity, especially since you need two basins and the geological features necessary aren't there. He even calculated how this would work in a compound with Norway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV_0uHP3BDY

I really doubt Germany's "Energiewende" is really possible, since solar doesn't generate energy at night and wind energy has really large spikes. This is not the energy you want to have in a large grid and storage isn't possible at such volume. I even calculated how many Tesla walls a city like Munich would need to have a week worth of energy stored and I really, really doubt, this is physically possible or economically viable.

Germany's "Energiewende" is something politicians would like to have, but the problems and cost this is causing (google "site:heise.de tennet") aren't shared fair.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#289

Post by rmetzler »

namibj wrote: post #162
eigenvector wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hit at an important dimension which is that the problem is not technical per se, it's really a problem of market design. Wind power purchase agreements should allow curtailment (since it is very easy to ramp a wind farm /down/) when needed for system reliability. However, this reduces the rate of return for wind farms so politicians that are looking to maximize wind build-outs will not favour this. It's also bene…

We already have a mostly-unified central European power market. IIRC the whole central Europe grid is in a single market. Also note that providers with international transport capacity can use that to arbitrage over them.

I think, it's only in theory like this, since you can't route energy over large distances without significant loss.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#290

Post by hoschicz »

WalterBright wrote: post #218
WalterBright wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heck, you could even go to town running an icemaker at noon when power is cheap, and set out trays of ice in the evening with a fan blowing over it. That can even be turned into an appliance that would be an accessory to your HVAC system.

During the winter, one can electrically heat concrete blocks during the day, they release their heat at night. (A concrete block makes for a pretty cheap "battery" !! )

Why heat concrete blocks? Doesn't water have a higher thermal capacity?
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