Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 419 posts

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#271

Post by toast0 »

nine_k wrote: post #257
WalterBright wrote: post #189

I'll suggest again that the solution to this is to charge variable prices to the consumer based on the supply. For example, I pay exactly the same rate, 24/7. Of course this will result in a mismatch of supply and demand. A lot of electricity demand can be shifted to when the supply is cheapest. When the supply varies wildly, like solar and wind do, there's a giant impedance mismatch when demand is charged a fixed pr…

Night rates are a thing in some countries. I'm not sure it's implemented anywhere in the US, though.

Time of use metering is an available option in some parts of the US, and I think mandatory in some places as well. I've also seen some tarriffs residences can opt into with a lower base rate, and a much higher peak rate, with some sort of real time indication that a peak will be coming in the next hour or day, depending on the system.

Of course, commercial/institutional energy users have had demand adjustment programs in return for lower base rates for a lot longer.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#272

Post by fogetti »

perl4ever wrote: post #20
maerF0x0 wrote: post #5

> It’s left the utilities complaining that they can’t earn the returns they expected for their investment in generation capacity. Good. That's a well functioning market economy. Those who make poor investment choices need to feel the sting of losses else the market fails to work correctly.

I think that negative prices are prima facie evidence of a market economy not functioning "well". Negative prices seem to me to be to be equivalent to fines for doing things that aren't socially useful. If they proliferate, that's a suggestion something is out of whack.

You are right, although it's not clear for me if you refer to the old/traditional coal plants or not. If you refer to the coal plants I agree, the 'negative prices are prima facie evidence of' coal plants 'not functioning "well"'.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#273

Post by dionna767675 »

Get 24/7 Unlimited Roadside Assistance For As Little As $9.95 a Month Unlimited 24/7 roadside assistance. (Whether you’ve got a flat tire, out of gas, locked out of your car, or need towing, just call us, and we’ll be there in 45 minutes or less) Get reimbursed for calling your own tow company up to $100. If your car is undriveable due to an accident we will cover your rental car up to $500. Or, if you’re far from home, we’ll pay up to $500 for food, lodging or transportation click below for more information https://roadsidekings.com

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#274

Post by strainer »

xigma wrote: post #47
DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

You "currently" have a drought, but otherwise you have plenty of water, so a desalination plant isn't a wise investment (yet). Also keep in mind that these are energy spikes that cause negative prices, whereas most industrial uses need a constant and even supply. These spikes are countered by periods of little to no energy . This is the biggest problem with (most) renewables, they cannot entirely replace coal or nucl…

Take for example UKs wind energy input, which is charted here: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ (might need to zoom in a bit)

The periods of "little to no energy" take up less time than periods of "more than little". Such periods are not as your phrase suggested, the norm broken up by occasional spikes.

Total energy supply and demand is never constant or even, it varies throughout days, weeks and seasons. That variation has always had to be accommodated.

Even without more storage (hydro, battery, future??) the grid can use almost all of the input which renewables can throw at it, and use existing plants to fill in gaps.

But there will be more storage, and long range transmission lines, better solar panels, batteries and windturbines. There is no major unsolved problem here, like nuclear fusion or Mars habitation has, its just a matter of mobilizing with existing technology. A matter which has been politically delayed for too long...

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#275

Post by matt4077 »

rwcarlsen wrote: post #37
maerF0x0 wrote: post #5

> It’s left the utilities complaining that they can’t earn the returns they expected for their investment in generation capacity. Good. That's a well functioning market economy. Those who make poor investment choices need to feel the sting of losses else the market fails to work correctly.

Low/negative prices (caused largely by various regulation/policies) have been putting a lot of economic pressure on existing nuclear power generation - sometimes causing it to close [1]. Generation that is largely replaced by natural gas plants. So maybe this very non-free-market state is actually not helping make forward progress on what many would consider to be one of the most important issues relating to energy -…

HN seems to have some macho fascination with nuclear power. Or at least that's the only reason I can think of why people would advocate for it, considering nuclear power is simply far too expensive.

Yes, maybe the population at large lacks statistical understanding and needlessly fears nuclear power[0]. But it's still too expensive, as demonstrated by the complete lack of new construction. It'd be rather strange for every single energy company and government to succumb to irrationality, simultaneously.

Even solar + storage has now crossed nuclear's costs. I

[0] And they may just have all read 'Black Swan'

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#276

Post by surfingtheweb »

yayana wrote: post #98
DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

I think Pumped Hydroelectric Storage is what you are looking for. I've seen a few of them here in Switzerland. I think many were originally built out with the train system's grid for it's reliably scheduled low and high capacity times. http://energystorage.org/energy-storage/technologies/pumped-...

Is there a way to implement gravity batteries on a household-level scale? Shouldn't we all be using solar to lift a weight during the day that will lower during the night to feed the grid?

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#277

Post by yourapostasy »

eloff wrote: post #236
floatrock wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capital costs vs. marginal costs. You're going to build a $100M desalination plant and run it for three hours a day? That's a ton of money sitting idle most of the day, far more than what is recovered with zero operating costs. (This is called the utilization factor -- how long a piece of equipment is used vs. staying idle) Ideally you want useful processes with low capital costs and expensive marginal/energy costs.…

Desalinization isn't a good example for the reasons you say, but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better. Since water once heated stays hot for a good while in the insulated storage tank. Also buildings can be heated with hot water instead of forced air, typically through pipes in the floor. Which is nicer because it keeps your feet toasty and doesn't dry out the…

> The problem is I have no way to take advantage of any of that.

Some metropolitan areas have residential level demand response programs that address the obverse issue: when there is too little power, participating opt-in residential electricity customers with a qualifying Internet-connected thermostat would see their HVAC systems reduce power consumption through adjustment of the temperature set point. I suspect most of them use OpenADR [1].

If my skim of the OpenADR specification (requires free registration) is off, and we can't use it to pass pricing signals through the EIEvent/Quote/Report/Avail/Opt services, then we can use the OASIS Energy Interoperation parent specification, though that seems much more heavyweight and baroque to work with, and likely a harder sell to utility organizations to adopt. The utilities would need to expose pricing history as well, so longer-term planning by consumers can be performed through predictive trend analysis.

The communications and protocol infrastructure is there to convey the information to your residence, but the back-end at the utility side is an open question, and likeliest hardest to hook up. If I had access to near-zero cost electricity when they're trying shed load, then I would use it for drying clothes, chilling a pool (thermal mass) during hot months, heating a pool (thermal mass) during cold months, baking and pressure cooking while running a kitchen A/C at full blast, etc. All of these activities either use capital equipment already paid for, or very cheap to acquire to add to my existing equipment stock (like heat exchanger to thermal mass and even a brine tank).

[1] https://openadr.memberclicks.net/

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#278

Post by ksolanki »

eloff wrote: post #236
floatrock wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capital costs vs. marginal costs. You're going to build a $100M desalination plant and run it for three hours a day? That's a ton of money sitting idle most of the day, far more than what is recovered with zero operating costs. (This is called the utilization factor -- how long a piece of equipment is used vs. staying idle) Ideally you want useful processes with low capital costs and expensive marginal/energy costs.…

Desalinization isn't a good example for the reasons you say, but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better. Since water once heated stays hot for a good while in the insulated storage tank. Also buildings can be heated with hot water instead of forced air, typically through pipes in the floor. Which is nicer because it keeps your feet toasty and doesn't dry out the…

This is insightful. The solution is probably to have a spot market for electricity that is accessible via an API so that smart AC or fridge or electric car charger can make use of it.

This will encourage market for devices that can utilize the lower spot prices dynamically and keep the things more efficient overall (in steady state).

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#279

Post by [deleted] »

ridewinter wrote: post #202
CapitalistCartr wrote: post #71

I wonder if there's a way to remove CO2 from the air with surplus electricity without a half-billion dollar plant. That would be a win for everyone. It operates when the wholesale price of electicity drops below its threshold, perhaps only 4-6 hours per day, so would have to be a pretty cheap fixed cost.

This seems like a brilliant idea. Anyone know how it could be done?

[deleted]

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#280

Post by eitally »

ksolanki wrote: post #278
eloff wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Desalinization isn't a good example for the reasons you say, but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better. Since water once heated stays hot for a good while in the insulated storage tank. Also buildings can be heated with hot water instead of forced air, typically through pipes in the floor. Which is nicer because it keeps your feet toasty and doesn't dry out the…

This is insightful. The solution is probably to have a spot market for electricity that is accessible via an API so that smart AC or fridge or electric car charger can make use of it. This will encourage market for devices that can utilize the lower spot prices dynamically and keep the things more efficient overall (in steady state).

Some electricity utilities offer this as a sort of service to their customers, where they detect high grid utilization days and notify customers they can save $ by reducing consumption on those days. Here's PG&E's page about their version: https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-o...

It's not "smart" or automated, but it's a baby step.

Post reply on HN