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Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

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Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#211

Post by phil21 »

tensecondflash wrote: post #174
rwcarlsen wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due to subsidies, in the US people dumping home solar into the grid usually get back more than the market rate.

I don't think that's the case. Depending on where you are, you either get paid retail or wholesale rates, and still have to pay some monthly service fee regardless of surplus or deficit. I've never heard of any utility in the US buying solar production at more than retail rates.

> you either get paid retail or wholesale rates

So above market rates. Sorry, your 10kw of intermittent unreliable power provided at your whim into a random neighborhood grid is not worth the same amount per kwh as reliable base/load following generation. And that's wholesale.

Retail priced net zero metering is even worse - that's simply poor people subsidizing rich folks with solar panels.

Maybe the subsidization is ok overall due to the system changes it (might) bring about - but man it's bothered me for decades that rich folks who can afford to blow $25k+ on solar installs act so smug about net-metering - when it's them simply stealing from other ratepayers for their free battery.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#212

Post by malloryerik »

floatrock wrote: post #48
DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

Capital costs vs. marginal costs. You're going to build a $100M desalination plant and run it for three hours a day? That's a ton of money sitting idle most of the day, far more than what is recovered with zero operating costs. (This is called the utilization factor -- how long a piece of equipment is used vs. staying idle) Ideally you want useful processes with low capital costs and expensive marginal/energy costs.…

What about using the energy for various forms of carbon sequestration? Making biochar [1] for example? An area's biodegradable waste could be collected according to existing garbage schedules, and the grid's excess electricity used to create biochar from it at garbage/recycling sites.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochar#Production

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#213

Post by mmt »

rconti wrote: post #135
aphextron wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also California isn't most expensive, seems pretty much the same as many blue states. https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/ >Data for 2016 This lists California at $0.15/kWh. I've never paid even close to that anywhere I've lived. The current PGE residential rate of $0.28/kWh [0] is about the same as Honolulu, Hawaii, where 100% of electricity is produced from burning natural gas and petroleum.[1] [0] https://www.p…

Silicon Valley Electric was 8c when I lived there, 10c now. My PG&E's lowest off-peak rate is now 16c, though I'm on a TOU plan and just installed solar, and I have generation through Peninsula Clean Energy so my bill is somewhat more complicated than the charts involved to send Apollo 11 to the moon.

> Silicon Valley Electric was 8c when I lived there, 10c now.

If you mean Silicon Valley Power, the municipal electric utility for Santa Clara, it's now (as of Jan 2017) 11.82c [1] for residential non-TOU for the upper tier.

It's also only for the city of Santa Clara. Palo Alto has a municipal utility, but its rates are higher, and these are exceptions. AFAIK, the vast majority of California is served by a private utility (e.g. PG&E).

[1] http://www.siliconvalleypower.com/home/showdocument?id=6253

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#214

Post by pbhjpbhj »

brendog wrote: post #46

the key to solving this problem is a communications link between the supply side and the demand side. It's crazy that there's a complete disconnect between something that consumes power (that in many cases could delay it's consumption until a time when there was excess capacity, or at least make a more informed decision) and the supply side. I started episensor in Ireland and we've been working on this problem for ma…

It's pretty crazy that 30 years ago in UK Economy7 [7 hours lower rate electric at night] was a big thing, you got cheaper electric at night and had a special meter to accommodate the billing needs. But I can't get that now despite being offered a device that will give instantaneous cost readings.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#215

Post by Baeocystin »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #160
matthewmcg wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting thought. In Richard Rhodes new book Energy , he describes how an early iron smelting works in England, faced with temporarily low demand due to a recession, rolled its excess iron into railroad tracks which could be re-used for other purposes once demand recovered: Richard Reynolds, who managed the Darbys’ Ketley ironworks, near Coalbrookdale, in the 1760s, introduced cast-iron plates and then cast-iron r…

For mobile users: Richard Reynolds, who managed the Darbys’ Ketley ironworks, near Coalbrookdale, in the 1760s, introduced cast-iron plates and then cast-iron rails to protect the wooden rails from wear and tear or to replace them. He had another reason as well for using iron: as an ingenious storage system. A depression following the end of the Seven Years’ War in 1764 reduced demand for iron products. Prices fell.…

Thank you.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#216

Post by dgacmu »

weberc2 wrote: post #126
DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

Bitcoin mining. This may or may not be a sincere suggestion.

Same flaw as the other ideas - mining is very capital intensive. You can use mining in a demand response capacity, but it's best used when you can run it 98% of the time and shut down during the most expensive 2%. If you look at some of the data from Australia, peak cost per MW can go really high.

It's also an environmental travesty, but that's already the case.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#217

Post by WalterBright »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #208
WalterBright wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consumption and production are both inelastic and storage costs are high. Consumption is inelastic because the electricity rates are fixed 24/7. Allow variable pricing based on supply, and you'll see very elastic behavior. For example, people will charge their car batteries when the rates are cheapest. Same for running the electric hot water heater, and the A/C, refrigerator, etc.

I'd say it's more "slightly elastic" than "very elastic". A lot of people won't spend the mental energy to optimize anything more than the most major consumptions, and even then most of what they can do is rearranging loads, not reducing them.

It's not about reducing them, it's time-shifting them. The big electric consumers are A/C, heating, refrigeration, hot water heating, and car battery charging. All of those are very amenable to time shifting, and this shifting can be automated.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#218

Post by WalterBright »

WalterBright wrote: post #209
psergeant wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But also: consumers with Powerwalls and other home storage options.

Heck, you could even go to town running an icemaker at noon when power is cheap, and set out trays of ice in the evening with a fan blowing over it. That can even be turned into an appliance that would be an accessory to your HVAC system.

During the winter, one can electrically heat concrete blocks during the day, they release their heat at night.

(A concrete block makes for a pretty cheap "battery" !! )

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#219

Post by torpfactory »

Negative energy prices are one of the signals which might drive the devlopment of grid scale storage. Very obvious arbitrage potential here. The fact that utilities themselves are complaining about this instead of investing in storage is a little dismaying.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#220

Post by WalterBright »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #208
WalterBright wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consumption and production are both inelastic and storage costs are high. Consumption is inelastic because the electricity rates are fixed 24/7. Allow variable pricing based on supply, and you'll see very elastic behavior. For example, people will charge their car batteries when the rates are cheapest. Same for running the electric hot water heater, and the A/C, refrigerator, etc.

I'd say it's more "slightly elastic" than "very elastic". A lot of people won't spend the mental energy to optimize anything more than the most major consumptions, and even then most of what they can do is rearranging loads, not reducing them.

BTW, people often asserted that demand for gas is inelastic. There's plenty of evidence it is very elastic - just the constant variation of pump prices is a sure sign of demand and supply being constantly adjusted.

And fuel economy most definitely affects peoples' choices in cars.

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