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Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

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Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#41

Post by stcredzero »

EvilEndures wrote: post #21
stcredzero wrote: post #8

If the general pattern holds of the electrical power market being like the natural gas market, just at much shorter time scales, then does this mean that we are going to see an increase in electrical power storage in the next few years? Companies have been making money by offering storage and pooling services in energy for quite awhile. It's just that storage has been more difficult from an economic and technical sen…

Probably that and "quick start" powerplants already serving this function in the UK. https://www.ft.com/content/ba6bd46a-1d75-11e8-956a-43db76e69... > The episode showed how small, flexible power plants are now bridging the supply gaps, especially at a local level, between intermittent renewables and Britain’s fleet of large, but slow-to-fire-up, gas and coal plants.

Probably that and "quick start" powerplants already serving this function in the UK.

Right. Quick start plants basically convert "stored" energy in the form of natural gas into electrical energy on the grid. The natural gas supply has a chemistry/physics advantage in terms of storage efficiency. (As well as industrial infrastructure already built up.) This would allow us to calculate a target number for the storage cost of batteries which could compete. We can then apply industry trends to see which battery chemistry or power storage technology might become competitive, and when it is likely to achieve that.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#42

Post by ragebol »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

I think that usually, stuff like desalination plants aren't over-dimensioned but are built to consume some known amount of power. There's nothing to consume near-free power because that capacity would sit idle the vast majority of time.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#44

Post by milcron »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #5

> It’s left the utilities complaining that they can’t earn the returns they expected for their investment in generation capacity. Good. That's a well functioning market economy. Those who make poor investment choices need to feel the sting of losses else the market fails to work correctly.

Electricity isn't a great market. End-users with solar power are allowed to use the grid as a perfectly free battery, which is why everyone is dumping power on the grid at high noon.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#45

Post by filleokus »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

I guess this will maybe emerge in the future if the trend continues and is fairly steady. The problems I see is that the capital cost of many of the most energy demanding processes are such that they only make sense to run almost 24/7, and if the cheap electricity is only available 8/5 (or something) the economics might not work out. Maybe there are some applications out there that are cheap enough for this to be sustainable.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#46

Post by brendog »

the key to solving this problem is a communications link between the supply side and the demand side. It's crazy that there's a complete disconnect between something that consumes power (that in many cases could delay it's consumption until a time when there was excess capacity, or at least make a more informed decision) and the supply side. I started episensor in Ireland and we've been working on this problem for many years.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#47

Post by xigma »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

You "currently" have a drought, but otherwise you have plenty of water, so a desalination plant isn't a wise investment (yet).

Also keep in mind that these are energy spikes that cause negative prices, whereas most industrial uses need a constant and even supply. These spikes are countered by periods of little to no energy.

This is the biggest problem with (most) renewables, they cannot entirely replace coal or nuclear energy for that reason. Energy storage (at cost) is an unsolved problem.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#48

Post by floatrock »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

Capital costs vs. marginal costs.

You're going to build a $100M desalination plant and run it for three hours a day? That's a ton of money sitting idle most of the day, far more than what is recovered with zero operating costs.

(This is called the utilization factor -- how long a piece of equipment is used vs. staying idle)

Ideally you want useful processes with low capital costs and expensive marginal/energy costs. Desalination is not one of those.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#49

Post by dalbasal »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

I imagine something like this would happen, if this is a "real" economic phenomenon rather than a quirky price/billing system. I think that it's something like that though, a goof in a not-quite-designed collection of old energy funding/billing setups and newer green energy stuff.

Otherwise there'd be someone just consuming electricity for pay. I don't think this is "retail."

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#50

Post by Firerouge »

dev_dull wrote: post #10

The logical next step is devices (storage) which can arbitrage these prices and make a profit. Capitalism is a wonderful thing, especially when it’s helping make green energy more efficient.

A power wall that's paid to be charged during peak generation, and gets paid again to discharge during peak consumption would be pretty fantastic.
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