EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing • Hacker News Board

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#231

Post by yorwba » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

amluto wrote: post #220

RobertRoberts wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be group think present even here on HN. I don't downvote comments if that at least attempt to make a coherent argument with supporting facts. But, when I got rid of asbestos insulation around some water pipes I followed every precaution. But many people seem to think chlorine isn't toxic because it's so common. Note: There is _no_ known antidote to chlorine poisoning. (an example of how there is a toxi…

> But many people seem to think chlorine isn't toxic because it's so common. > Note: There is _no_ known antidote to chlorine poisoning. (an example of how there is a toxin around us everyday, in our drinking water, in our pools, on our clothes, cleaning products, etc...) Why is there no outrage over this? There’s probably no credible outrage for two major reasons: - Chlorine in water is not actually a meaningful pro…

> There aren’t credible alternatives.

Other countries (e.g. Germany) do not routinely chlorinate their drinking water and seem to do fine.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#232

Post by ethagknight » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 4:46 PM UTC

roland35 wrote: post #199

ethagknight wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False on all accounts. Handling asbestos and lead is a well defined scope of work in the construction industry, large projects or small. The fact that you weren't carrying a budget for hot materials doesn't mean its a big conspiracy. There are very clear rules. Its a pain in the rear, but its also a budget line item just like mechanical, electrical, carpentry. Asbestos and Lead is a large piece of Environmental Engin…

Maybe for the construction industry, but that is not my experience at least for residential. I had to call at least 30 different contractors across the state, and I recieved 30 different replies on the proper way to remove it. I have not had much luck finding a safe replacement! At least with electronics design I can check 'RoHs compliant' and see documentation from manufacturers. Not the case with ceramic tiles. The…

A home builder or remodeler will have varying attitudes, ranging from full compliance with best practices / law via hiring a certified abatement subcontractor vs "just leave us the keys and someone will get it out overnight." You should call a good local environmental engineer, who will give you direction you need. Will cost a few grand.

Alternatively, if its a bathroom's worth of 'hot' ceramic tile (having asbestos or lead), best, legal bet is to just call an abatement company and have them rip it out on the assumption that its hot. You will spend more on testing and research than just following protocol and sending it off to the appropriate landfill. Or if you are tightly budget constrained, just leave the tile in place and place new tile on top. Thats the easiest of all. Hope thats helpful.

(edited with a few clarifications)

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#233

Post by throw2016 » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

The problem with these kind of threads on regulations, nuclear power, the epa is there is a lot of talk as if the commentators would live with their families right next to a nuclear plant but its in the comments of those who are personally affected where you see the concern, empathy and maturity.

A lot of these 'strong opinions' often give way to the fastest u-turn known in history when people are personally affected. Empathy and maturity means you don't wait to be personally affected to change your mind.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#234

Post by ars » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 4:52 PM UTC

skummetmaelk wrote: post #53

ChrisRR wrote: post #17

This makes sense as asbestos only really causes harm when humans come into contact with it. For applications where it is safely enclosed or mixed with another material it may have its uses. I think analysis on a case-by-case basis is the right way to go.

Leaded paint is only really dangerous if you pry it off the wall and swallow it. Who would do that?

And yet there is a nice chunk of lead in my car.

It's all in how you use it, asbestos included.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#235

Post by fishtank » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

okket wrote: post #166

mirimir wrote: post #137

Wow. I mean, wow. I'm impressed. These idiots in government really only care about their bribes. And the idiots who are bribing them only care about making money. Everyone else can just fuck off and die. But hey. The Reagan era was horrible too. I mean, eight fucking years! Plus four more of Bush I. And then, all too soon, another eight years of Bush II. ... Actually, I was going for optimism. But I just can't get it…

Nixon created the EPA...

Nixon _reluctantly_ created the EPA as a response to one of the only periods of sustained popular environmentalism in American history.

I'm unsure why this gets bandied about as a feather in Nixon's cap. Just as a factual matter, as soon as he was politically safe from environmentalist pressure (post-1972), he retreated completely on environmental issues, vetoing the EPA's budget, ordering the EPA to spend less than was apportioned to the agency.

It's an example of the potential for citizen activism, and an example of Nixon's inclination to consolidate power in the executive branch. Certainly not an example of "the post-WWII modern Republican party at one time wanted to expand environmental protections beyond the minimum required to quell citizen activism."

"All politics is a fad. Your fad is going right now. Get what you can, and here's what I can get you." - Nixon, to the Sierra Club, 1970

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#236

Post by markvdb » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #187

nemacol wrote: post #147

Having just lost a father-in-law to mesothelioma (June 2018), this makes me incredibly sad. I understand this is not an actual rule change and blah blah blah. 3,000 people are diagnosed with mesothelioma each year. What a slow and horrific way to go. Slowly losing your breath. Lungs filling with fluid and being rushed off to ER to drain. Endless breathing treatments. Never sleeping more than an hour without waking up…

It does say it's only being approved in special cases. I wouldn't expect the building industry to suddenly start using it again. How many of those 3000 are a legacy of the previous eras misunderstanding of the chemical? I doubt any company would ignore that risk and produce a product that put people at a direct and unknown risk, especially given the legal liability since we now know the full risks of the chemical and…

The material stil has to be mined. Even with US companies treating the health risks to their employees in an exemplary way (hah!), there still would be extra deaths in asbestos mining and processing in Russia or Brazil...

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#237

Post by mindslight » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #125

DougWebb wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We" didn't vote for this. A bit less than 25% of us voted for it, a bit more than 25% voted against it, and nearly 50% of us didn't bother to vote at all. (3rd parties got a small number of votes in the middle there too.) Neither of the major parties has a majority, or anything like a "mandate" about what the American people want. The majority wants "none of the above". If anyone figures out how to get that majority…

The 50% of people who didn't vote basically have said, we don't care to choose. So they got exactly what they voted for.

Actually, the 50% of people who didn't vote in the presidential election have said we don't care to choose between which of the two pieces of shit we're going to be forced to eat, and we're not going to legitimize our own oppression by helping pretend its consensual.

If Kodos had been elected, this likely would not be happening at the EPA (nor that shitshow over at the FCC). But other similarly destructive corruption would certainly be, depending on what her specific sponsors had purchased. The industries' agendas are written years in advance, the skinjobs' role is merely to sell them, and the act of voting is a major step to getting your mindshare.

Go try talking to a Trump supporter about the direct objectively bad results of his policies, on topics they ostensibly care about - eg tariffs that encourage even more manufacturing to move to China. You will find that they basically just fall back on cognitive dissonance from having chosen him and therefore having bought in to his reality distortion field.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#238

Post by blattimwind » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

lb1lf wrote: post #228

jdietrich wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EPA already allows asbestos to be used in a huge range of products. I simply cannot see what justification could be made for allowing asbestos to continue to be used in cement sheet, floor tile and brake pads. It might pose no immediate hazard when installed, but it could become a serious hazard at any point during its lifespan. Cement sheets crack and crumble, floor tiles become worn and get replaced, brake pads…

...a former employer (based in the EU, exports perhaps 2/3 of production outside the EU) took a major financial hit when it was found that a valve sourced from a cheaper supplier than the ones originally used contained an (undeclared) asbestos gasket. Cost of replacement gasket? Less than $1/system. Cost of getting to gasket? ~$70-80k/system. We had deployed a few hundred. On the upside, after this incident, noone in…

"same same" is the enemy of quality in any supply chain.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#239

Post by trhway » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #143

bruinjoe wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so true. We should just ban lobbying because it is only used by rich corporations and individuals.

Lobbying is just a legal form of corruption. Ban it, and it will still continue to exist underground anyway. What we need is to stop voting for idiot politicians.

For that you need to stop produce idiot voters.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#240

Post by CyberDildonics » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 5:03 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #143

bruinjoe wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so true. We should just ban lobbying because it is only used by rich corporations and individuals.

Lobbying is just a legal form of corruption. Ban it, and it will still continue to exist underground anyway. What we need is to stop voting for idiot politicians.

I guess we shouldn't have any laws at all then.