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EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

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Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We" didn't vote for this. A bit less than 25% of us voted for it, a bit more than 25% voted against it, and nearly 50% of us didn't bother to vote at all. (3rd parties got a small number of votes in the middle there too.) Neither of the major parties has a majority, or anything like a "mandate" about what the American people want. The majority wants "none of the above". If anyone figures out how to get that majority…

The 50% of people who didn't vote basically have said, we don't care to choose. So they got exactly what they voted for.

[deleted]

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#162
post #115
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say it's a feature, not a bug. Reducing everything to a popular vote is just a feel good way of describing mob rule. The electoral college and equal Senate representation acts as a tempering force on said mob.

The electoral college and equal Senate representation acts as a tempering force on said mob. So rather than tyranny of the majority, now we have tyranny of an arbitrary minority. I fail to see how that improves things. As others have pointed out, the constitution and the court system are the features that are supposed to counteract tyranny of the majority, not the EC or the Senate. The EC and the Senate aren't there…

> So rather than tyranny of the majority, now we have tyranny of an arbitrary minority. I fail to see how that improves things.

There's nothing arbitrary about it. The United States is a federated government and the electoral college is a system designed to ensure smaller state governments maintain some influence.

We have granted more and more power to the federal government over the years. You could argue that's a good thing. We are forcing the states to "catch up" their policies with the rest of the nation. You could also argue it's a bad thing. Each state is distinct by its culture, geography, demographics, etc. Therefore it makes sense that each state would need its own government and policies to handle its unique situations. Heavy-handed policies on the federal level could ruin the systems created by those governments.

You can argue the point either way but it's not fair to consider the electoral college as an "arbitrary" system. And it was no more of a bargaining chip than the Bill of Rights. It is a deliberate mechanic designed for a government that has changed significantly over more than two centuries.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to the US lobbying system, where science, ethics, and morals take a backseat to agendas of those with the deepest pockets.

This is so true. We should just ban lobbying because it is only used by rich corporations and individuals.

edited: Lobbying should be considered treasonous.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We" didn't vote for this. A bit less than 25% of us voted for it, a bit more than 25% voted against it, and nearly 50% of us didn't bother to vote at all. (3rd parties got a small number of votes in the middle there too.) Neither of the major parties has a majority, or anything like a "mandate" about what the American people want. The majority wants "none of the above". If anyone figures out how to get that majority…

The 50% of people who didn't vote basically have said, we don't care to choose. So they got exactly what they voted for.

People often spin refusing to vote as an explicit rejection of the current system, but I've always seen it as an implicit acceptance of the current system. By refusing to vote you are implicitly trusting the other voters to choose for you, so you get what they pick and have absolutely no right to complain about it.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#165

This article is 100% political. The EPA did this due to political shifts. What makes it eligible for the top spot on HN? Any detailed discussion of the politics underlying why this happened will be censored within minutes. What are we supposed to do, discuss the science of asbestos being toxic? This is a perfect example of why the "no politics" zealots on HN need to be stopped.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2018/07/11/a...

Or we can get to the real reasons why and get downvoted and flagged regardless.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#166

Wow. I mean, wow. I'm impressed. These idiots in government really only care about their bribes. And the idiots who are bribing them only care about making money. Everyone else can just fuck off and die. But hey. The Reagan era was horrible too. I mean, eight fucking years! Plus four more of Bush I. And then, all too soon, another eight years of Bush II. ... Actually, I was going for optimism. But I just can't get it…

Nixon created the EPA...

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#167
post #17

This makes sense as asbestos only really causes harm when humans come into contact with it. For applications where it is safely enclosed or mixed with another material it may have its uses. I think analysis on a case-by-case basis is the right way to go.

It does make sense, and I get frustrated by the blanket reactions below. In my line of work redeveloping historic buildings, asbestos is just another item to deal with. Some of the asbestos we encounter is friable, where we have to seal off a room with plastic, have all workers in hazmat suits, keep the material wet at all times, double bag it, and send it off to a special landfill in a sealed-top dumpster. Non-friables are much easier to safely remediate. Furthermore, asbestos that is encapsulated is safe to be left in place undisturbed.

It stands to reason that if there is a non-friable, encapsulated use where asbestos' natural properties make a significant impact, them we should at least consider their potential benefits as well.

Asbestos is a cheap and natural product with dangerous side effects. Much like oil. Allowing ways to use it safely is a worthwhile consideration.

EDIT: thinking back, the real pain in the ass with asbestos in my buildings is when it is glued down or otherwise affixed, and cannot be lifted away cleanly. Even in friable asbestos applications, if it can be removed or replaced relatively cleanly, then its not a big deal.

EDIT 2: to put numbers to the abatement discussion, we typically spend 1.5% of our construction budget on abatement. $30mm construction budget will cost $450k to remove it all properly, and in these buildings, asbestos and lead is everywhere. The bigger hit to us is on schedule, where we have to set aside an additional month or 2 to let the abatement guys have a whole floor at time, sometimes having to make 2 passes to abate the surface finishes like floor and ceiling tile, then come back through after general demo to remove pipe insulation, mastics, etc. The schedule hurts.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 50% of people who didn't vote basically have said, we don't care to choose. So they got exactly what they voted for.

No, because of the electoral college, in states like California where your vote doesn't matter as much (because nearly everyone votes democrat) the turnout is lower. It's not apathy when your vote literally isn't worth as much as someone else's, as evidenced by the fact that the number of votes didn't even determine the election.

I don't disagree, but this it partially the fault of the leadership of the House of Representatives. If they wanted to increase the voting power of Californians, then they'd repeal the Reapportionment Act of 1929 that caps the number of representatives at 435 and reapportion based on the Constitutionally suggested 30,000 people per representative in the House, which would equalize the weight of each Californian's vote by increasing the number of electors.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#169

Im seeing a lot of comments on brakes containing asbestos. As an automotive engine mechanic, I started my trade changing out brake pads. As far as im aware, the last generation of asbestos containing brake pads in the US were Ferodo Brake Pads ending around 1994. The pads were phased out for a number of reasons - health, of course. as a mechanic, mesothelioma was your biggest risk changing brakes all day. most shops…

Ha, for some reason it never occurred to me that the "bestos" in "Raybestos" was a reference to asbestos.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are downvoting because they believe what they've been told for decades from the media and late night lawyers commercials but this is the scientific fact. Non-friable asbestos is not dangerous, and people who don't work with it on a constant basis are not at risk. Those people who work with asbestos over longer periods of time are the ones who are at risk. A handful of exposures to friable asbestos will not giv…

>A handful of exposures to friable asbestos will not give you lung cancer Simply not a claim you can make. The incidence may be very low, but it has been proven that asbestos fibers are directly responsible for the creation of cancerous mesothelioma cells. Any number of fibers in your lungs 'may' cause cancer, even one.

> it has been proven that asbestos fibers are directly responsible for the creation of cancerous mesothelioma cells.

This is also a claim you simply cannot make.

Every chemical has a toxicity level. A single x-ray could give you lung cancer if you're unlucky. Just because there's a claim floating around that a single fiber could cause cancer is meaningless. Was this in a test tube or a lab environment?

Every day, millions of your own body cells are developing cancer because the DNA is being misreplicated during mitosis. But you have structures in your body that fight against this cancer and destroy those cells. You're saying, without any evidence, that your body can't fight a few microscopic fibers? Remember, any number of x-rays, including dental x-rays, could also cause cancer but you don't see people banning x-rays.

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