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Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

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Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#31

Post by kevingadd »

chops wrote: post #20

In Zynga games, you’re just trying to get more stuff. You’re caught up in this junkie behavior, and you have to keep upping the dose. That has me terrified. This exactly is what playing most MMO games is all about: the grind for stuff. I don't see a reason this should be considered that threatening to anything. The draw of MMO Games is the sense of accomplishment (next level, next piece of gear), and in any games now…

The level of actual social engagement in a game like Left 4 Dead (between the four human players) far surpasses that in a game like Frontierville, even if they both have achievements. Likewise, the level of depth and sophistication in something like Starcraft 2 is virtually impossible to compare. One could argue that Frontierville and the like are simply serving people's need for a simple, relaxing pastime - that's probably true - but as games, they still fall short. Facebook games, for the most part, exist as a space with the sole purpose of creating reasons to spam your facebook friends. I applaud Zynga for adding things that actually resemble game mechanics, but it's still kind of insulting to call them 'social games' when they're not particularly social and still barely games.

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#32

Post by chc »

chops wrote: post #20

In Zynga games, you’re just trying to get more stuff. You’re caught up in this junkie behavior, and you have to keep upping the dose. That has me terrified. This exactly is what playing most MMO games is all about: the grind for stuff. I don't see a reason this should be considered that threatening to anything. The draw of MMO Games is the sense of accomplishment (next level, next piece of gear), and in any games now…

There is an enormous difference there. The achievements in games like Left 4 Dead are mostly of two types:

1. Recognizing natural progress in the game.

2. Interesting challenges that test or develop your skill.

Neither should be a "grind" in the Farmville or even WoW sense. Some games fail at this, but by and large I don't think the "junkie behavior" label applies.

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#33

Post by VladRussian »

c'mon, people. Classic music is less popular than pop-music. Hollywood movies frequently gather more monies than supposedly more highly sophisticated and artful ones. So what? Zynga isn't the first (and isn't the last) to make money off mindless simplicity of the populus.

(just don't get me wrong - i like Hollywood, especially "governator", and it isn't Bach that is in my earphones - pop-culture has it for each of us, i'm just too old for Facebook/Farmville)

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#34

Post by _delirium »

I suspect many of the game designers quoted here actually have somewhat more nuanced views on the subject. Chris Hecker complained that his quote was taken out of context from a 1.5-hour interview: http://twitter.com/checker/status/25917674678

It's pretty lame tabloidish reporting, really. There could've been an article about this, and if the reporter actually conducted 1 hr+ interviews, he had the material to write one. But instead he cherry picked four quotes, slapped on a big image, and hit publish.

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#35

Post by hugh3 »

Lewisham wrote: post #28
sjsivak wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are just not the target audience. If Zynga games were not fun to everyone, no one would play them. Just because you do not find them amusing does not make them bad games. I don't like the My Little Pony games aimed at 6 year old girls, but I won't say they are bad because I know I am not a 6 year old girl.

They're "bad games" by any usual metric bar with which games are critiqued, unless your metrics are "money made" and "addiction." But they're businessmen metrics, not the ones a game designer would use. PopCap are definitely the company to look at here. They spent a decent number of years cloning smaller games, which was not to their credit. In the last 4 years or so, they've been creating amazing original IP. And th…

What other metrics do we have? Social approval among people who fancy themselves game critics?

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#36

Post by sjsivak »

Lewisham wrote: post #28
sjsivak wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are just not the target audience. If Zynga games were not fun to everyone, no one would play them. Just because you do not find them amusing does not make them bad games. I don't like the My Little Pony games aimed at 6 year old girls, but I won't say they are bad because I know I am not a 6 year old girl.

They're "bad games" by any usual metric bar with which games are critiqued, unless your metrics are "money made" and "addiction." But they're businessmen metrics, not the ones a game designer would use. PopCap are definitely the company to look at here. They spent a decent number of years cloning smaller games, which was not to their credit. In the last 4 years or so, they've been creating amazing original IP. And th…

What is the "usual metric bar with which games are critiqued"? I am pretty sure that is your opinion because there is no metric bar that all games are measured against.

Game reviews do not use a good game checklist to explain why a game is good or bad, they give their opinion. You can say Zynga games are bad, but supposing that your opinion should apply to everyone is arrogant.

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#37

Post by hugh3 »

chops wrote: post #20

In Zynga games, you’re just trying to get more stuff. You’re caught up in this junkie behavior, and you have to keep upping the dose. That has me terrified. This exactly is what playing most MMO games is all about: the grind for stuff. I don't see a reason this should be considered that threatening to anything. The draw of MMO Games is the sense of accomplishment (next level, next piece of gear), and in any games now…

I'd never get into Farmville or a MMO because both classes of game just look dull and time-consuming, but I agree that from that point of view they're pretty much the same.

The only thing that annoys me about Farmville and related games is the way they rely on getting people to spam their friends for viral growth. Now, I put them all on "ignore" as soon as I see them pop up so I've never got more than one notification from Farmville itself, but I have to keep on blocking all these damn games.

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#38

Post by Lewisham »

sjsivak wrote: post #36
Lewisham wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're "bad games" by any usual metric bar with which games are critiqued, unless your metrics are "money made" and "addiction." But they're businessmen metrics, not the ones a game designer would use. PopCap are definitely the company to look at here. They spent a decent number of years cloning smaller games, which was not to their credit. In the last 4 years or so, they've been creating amazing original IP. And th…

What is the "usual metric bar with which games are critiqued"? I am pretty sure that is your opinion because there is no metric bar that all games are measured against. Game reviews do not use a good game checklist to explain why a game is good or bad, they give their opinion. You can say Zynga games are bad, but supposing that your opinion should apply to everyone is arrogant.

There are plenty of metrics, like engagement, enjoyment etc. etc., but there is some very tangible metric bar by which games are measured, it's called peer approval.

By what metric are other art forms judged? How are the Oscars awarded to movies? Who chooses the winner of the Booker prize? Or the VMAs? Peer approval.

Zynga doesn't have peer approval from many game designers. This article highlights some dissenting opinion, but there's plenty more out there. Just Google it. Their infamous speech speech at GDC Awards show doesn't help their cause either. [1]

Note I am careful not to say "games reviewers" because reviewers are writing for their audience, and that core game audience usually does not intersect with Zynga.

[1]: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-20002221-52.html

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#39

Post by _delirium »

hugh3 wrote: post #35
Lewisham wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're "bad games" by any usual metric bar with which games are critiqued, unless your metrics are "money made" and "addiction." But they're businessmen metrics, not the ones a game designer would use. PopCap are definitely the company to look at here. They spent a decent number of years cloning smaller games, which was not to their credit. In the last 4 years or so, they've been creating amazing original IP. And th…

What other metrics do we have? Social approval among people who fancy themselves game critics?

One possibility (not sure if it's been done) is to try to understand what the players themselves think of the game. Some WoW players love it, some kind of hate it but continue to play it anyway for various reasons, ranging from addiction to sunk cost to social pressure, others vaccilate or are somewhere in between. How does that compare to FarmVille players or to Starcraft 2 players or to slot-machine players?

Self-assessment isn't a perfect metric either, but differences in self-assessment between players of different kinds of games might give something interesting. I mean, if you go only by money made, the slot machine is still the best game of all time. Which maybe is true on one axis of "best", but it seems weird to argue that it's the only possible way to discuss games. Is looking at the top-grossing films list the only possible way to discuss films?

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#40

Post by JoachimSchipper »

helium wrote: post #11
JoachimSchipper wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of them make big-budget games - at least, "puzzle pirates" doesn't scream high-end 3D gameplay to me. Also, there's a distinction between fun and addictive. Finally, I'm not sure they are actually losing all that many sales - how many people playing Farmville would have paid for Neverwinter Nights?

how many people playing Farmville would have paid for Neverwinter Nights? You just stumbled onto the real issue right there. All these people have been making amazing games, but they all appeal to the gamer market. Zygna has found out how to reach the the traditional non-gamer . It might be a hard pill to swallow, but the truth is that games like Farmville appeal to the majority of people who would never really pay f…

> stumbled

Well, no, I was well aware of that argument. But I'll take it in the spirit it was intended. ;-)

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