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What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

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Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#61

Post by tptacek »

jrmurad wrote: post #16
mahmud wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firefighting fee was $75. Wouldn't it have been more "economical" to accept what he offered to pay, on the spot, and save the man's house? Instead of teaching him a lesson? He was willing to pay thousands. I mean, I am all for free market, but libertarians are pushing the limits of common sense just to maintain intellectual consistency. Isn't there a room for "late fee", or "environmental damage", or just good ol…

Libertarians and the free market? Isn't this story about a government-run fire department?

No, it's a story about a municipal fire department that had a business relationship with surrounding unincorporated communities.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#62

Post by tptacek »

TheAmazingIdiot wrote: post #31
wccrawford wrote: post #3

"But it had to be done. Because if people knew that the firemen would save them free of charge, then nobody would pay. And if people knew that you could avoid paying the firemen up until the moment that first spark hit your curtain, well, again, nobody would pay." Exactly. Nobody wants someone stranger's house to burn down, but part of the rules of living there was that you'd pay your portion if you wanted protection…

Then try watching the interview with the victim on MSNBC. They can waive the fees, as they have done before. And both him and his neighbor said "we'll pay however much you say". Their responser: burn it to the ground.

What's your point? The (fire) victim chose to live in an area that had no fire department; when offered fire coverage at an extremely nominal fee (two cups of coffee a month!), they opted out.

About the most you could change in this scenario would have been for the FD not to have offered the service to residents outside their area, which would have made everybody worse off.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#63

Post by anigbrowl »

bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #52
elbrodeur wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Insurance doesn't work if you only pay it -after- you have a problem. It's been said in several other places but this sort of intellectual dishonesty can't be left alone. There are a plethora of examples currently in place in society that work well where if an uninsured person requires assistance they pay AT COST. If they can't afford out of pocket they set up a payment schedule.

That would create an incentive for firefighters to burn down people's houses. I'm not saying they would, but it's best not to create such situations. It would be harder to determine the right price to charge people. It's not the water that costs anything, it's the equipment. Remember, this organization is not seeking to make a profit, just cover costs. If people pay in advance, you charge (number of houses / cost of…

You are half-right, and such things used to happen occasionally - back when there were multiple competing fire departments, some of them veered towards being protection rackets. That's a big reason service is a (local) government monopoly nowadays.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#64

Post by eru »

tptacek wrote: post #56

This is coming up because of the Tennessee "firefighters watched it burn over $75" story. But there's backstory to that story. The fire department in question served a nearby town, and had no responsibility for the area where the fire occurred. As a service to people living outside their area, you could pay $75/year to get "out of area" coverage. The people who lost their house did two things to keep them from being…

Yes.

(And it's funny how the American's have bent the word liberal to mean something closer to social democrat.)

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#65

Post by Zaak »

anigbrowl wrote: post #44
gaius wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the insurance was $75. See the difference? Everyone's small fee upfront is what purchased all the equipment. If you wait 'til after, then you've got nothing when you need it. And a man who won't pay up $75, will he pay thousands once you've already put the fire out ?

Yes, so when his house catches on fire and you can put it out, you hand him a bill for $5000 or whatever the cost of a fire crew for several hours is. And if he doesn't pay, you sue him. You get the cost of providing the service back, he still has a house. Allowing the dwelling to burn to the ground just results in a destruction of wealth for zero gain.

This is the heart of the matter. The firefighters were within their rights to refuse to let him buy their services, but it would have been better for everyone involved if they had put out the fire, then billed him for the cost.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#66

Post by GiraffeNecktie »

cullenking wrote: post #54
GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if I don't pay my taxes? Lots of annoying letters and then, eventually, maybe a court order plus fines etc. They don't demand money at gunpoint. And they'll still send the firetrucks if my house is on fire. We're a little more civilized than that. One of the reasons for universal fire service is to avoid the harm that comes when people try to do it on their own. You don't want random people - the homeown…

I promise that if you don't pay your taxes and refuse any additional fines, people with guns will knock on your door.

Maybe where you live.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#67

Post by Semiapies »

elbrodeur wrote: post #59
Semiapies wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring the detail of insurance . I elsewhere point out examples of other government services that allow people to pay the costs if they don't pay the fee/purchase insurance, but the fact remains that insurance works differently by definition.

You're ignoring that in almost every other instance where you could have had insurance, you receive assistance and pay the price. This is not insurance, this is a protection racket. EDIT: By protection racket I mean this: I think in this scenario there is little distinction in letting something bad happen when it is well within your ability to stop it and making something bad happen. "If you don't pay up I'm not goin…

You're ignoring what I just wrote.

Also, a "protection racket" is when some thugs retaliate against you if you don't pay them, not when people refuse to provide a service you've previously refused to pay for.

I also have a dim view of the laws of the Alaskan city, but there's no call to throw around accusations of "intellectual dishonesty" and such just because you're angry, too.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#68

Post by tptacek »

elbrodeur wrote: post #59
Semiapies wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring the detail of insurance . I elsewhere point out examples of other government services that allow people to pay the costs if they don't pay the fee/purchase insurance, but the fact remains that insurance works differently by definition.

You're ignoring that in almost every other instance where you could have had insurance, you receive assistance and pay the price. This is not insurance, this is a protection racket. EDIT: By protection racket I mean this: I think in this scenario there is little distinction in letting something bad happen when it is well within your ability to stop it and making something bad happen. "If you don't pay up I'm not goin…

A protection racket is when you pay to avoid damages, lest someone from the vendor incur those very same damages to you in retaliation for not paying. The fire department didn't set the fire.

Words mean things.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#69

Post by jules »

cullenking wrote: post #54
GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if I don't pay my taxes? Lots of annoying letters and then, eventually, maybe a court order plus fines etc. They don't demand money at gunpoint. And they'll still send the firetrucks if my house is on fire. We're a little more civilized than that. One of the reasons for universal fire service is to avoid the harm that comes when people try to do it on their own. You don't want random people - the homeown…

I promise that if you don't pay your taxes and refuse any additional fines, people with guns will knock on your door.

Um, no. They will take your stuff and sell it. If you then try to use said stuff, men with guns may come for using someone else's stuff.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#70

Post by protomyth »

anigbrowl wrote: post #39
protomyth wrote: post #29

Suppose they did help and one of the firefighters got hurt. It would probably be a violation of their insurance ("Why were you protecting a home not on your coverage list?"). Would the family who was too cheap to pay $75 a year pay for medical costs for that firefighter?

Most unlikely. The insuredness or not of a property has little bearing on the dangers it poses compared to any other burning building; it's the accountant who'd be upset, rather than the insurers.

When buying insurance for providing a service (especially a dangerous one), there are often conditions about the place these services may be performed and under what condition. It is pretty likely that their insurance policy will only cover them on homes that they are paid to protect. It might also be the case that a certain percentage of each yearly payment goes to insurance.
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