What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily • Hacker News Board

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#31

Post by TheAmazingIdiot » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:10 PM UTC

wccrawford wrote: post #3

"But it had to be done. Because if people knew that the firemen would save them free of charge, then nobody would pay. And if people knew that you could avoid paying the firemen up until the moment that first spark hit your curtain, well, again, nobody would pay." Exactly. Nobody wants someone stranger's house to burn down, but part of the rules of living there was that you'd pay your portion if you wanted protection…

Then try watching the interview with the victim on MSNBC. They can waive the fees, as they have done before. And both him and his neighbor said "we'll pay however much you say". Their responser: burn it to the ground.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#32

Post by zacharycohn » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:10 PM UTC

DanielStraight wrote: post #17

This ignores the option of putting out the fire and charging more than the fee would ever have been over the life of the house. Pay the fee each year and we'll put out your house for free. Don't pay the fee, and we'll still put out your house if you want us to, but we'll charge 200 years worth of fees.

Then the issue of determining what the fee has to be, making people pay, keeping track of everyone who is paying the fee vs everyone who is paying the insurance, etc.

Which, especially for a volunteer organization, seems like a lot more work than just keeping track of who paid insurance this month and who didn't.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#33

Post by frankus » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:11 PM UTC

DanielStraight wrote: post #17

This ignores the option of putting out the fire and charging more than the fee would ever have been over the life of the house. Pay the fee each year and we'll put out your house for free. Don't pay the fee, and we'll still put out your house if you want us to, but we'll charge 200 years worth of fees.

Exactly. The $75 is an insurance fee, not a club membership.

If I shoot myself in the leg and go to the hospital uninsured, they fix me up and then bill me for the cost. They don't let me bleed to death to "teach others a lesson."

We can't have people buying insurance whenever they need it, but it's perfectly OK to have people buy the service that the insurance pays for directly when they need it.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#34

Post by gaius » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:11 PM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #22

Udo wrote: post #6

I know I'm probably the only one thinking like this, but I find this whole concept - starting from "voluntary" payment right through to "watching their houses burn so they can learn their lesson" - incredibly perverse and morally bankrupt to the extreme. If your neighbor's house is on fire, you don't haggle over the price of the garden hose. If you're a firefighter equipped to deal with disaster, you do your damn bes…

What kind of asshole do you have to be to refuse to pay $6.25 a month and then expect to free ride on a service the rest of the neighborhood paid for?

Hell, a beer costs more than that in some towns.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#35

Post by GiraffeNecktie » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:12 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #24

GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #5

This is what it's like to live in a place where "taxation" is a dirty four letter word. Call me a commie, but I'm glad I live in a place where public safety, road maintenance and health care are a shared civic responsibility. Everyone who can afford to pays and everyone benefits.

What happens if you don't pay your taxes? You don't need to wait for an accident that may never happen like the house catching fire, armed men will shortly arrive on your doorstep demanding that you do. Just saying that there are two sides to every coin.

What happens if I don't pay my taxes? Lots of annoying letters and then, eventually, maybe a court order plus fines etc.

They don't demand money at gunpoint. And they'll still send the firetrucks if my house is on fire. We're a little more civilized than that.

One of the reasons for universal fire service is to avoid the harm that comes when people try to do it on their own. You don't want random people - the homeowners, their kids or passersby - jumping in to fight a fire without the proper training, backup, and equipment.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#36

Post by Semiapies » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:13 PM UTC

alextgordon wrote: post #23

gaius wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the insurance was $75. See the difference? Everyone's small fee upfront is what purchased all the equipment. If you wait 'til after, then you've got nothing when you need it. And a man who won't pay up $75, will he pay thousands once you've already put the fire out ?

And a man who won't pay up $75, will he pay thousands once you've already put the fire out? Even the american healthcare system people lets people pay for treatment if they don't have insurance. After the fact. This is what the courts exist for. Not allowing someone to pay because there's a possibility they might default is completely ridiculous. Should we close all the restaurants now, too?

It's not "not allowing someone to pay". It's "not providing service to someone out of a hurried promise of later payment". What restaurant will kindly let you pay them next Tuesday for a hamburger today?

And sadly, no - if you're a homeless person and walk into most hospitals with cancer, you'll get some painkillers if you need them (before being sent on your way), not a walk to the oncology ward.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#37

Post by Semiapies » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:16 PM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #2

Here is a video of Tennessee fire-fighters watching a house burn to the ground because the owner didn't pre-pay the annual fee. http://thinkprogress.org/2010/10/04/county-firefighters-subs...

A difference in detail here is that that fire was outside the city. Residents of that city don't opt-in, they just pay taxes to support firefighting services. There's no county-wide firefighting service in that area, so the city provides optional service to county residents whom the city can't levy taxes on - if they pay that fee.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#38

Post by gaius » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:16 PM UTC

GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #35

gaius wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if you don't pay your taxes? You don't need to wait for an accident that may never happen like the house catching fire, armed men will shortly arrive on your doorstep demanding that you do. Just saying that there are two sides to every coin.

What happens if I don't pay my taxes? Lots of annoying letters and then, eventually, maybe a court order plus fines etc. They don't demand money at gunpoint. And they'll still send the firetrucks if my house is on fire. We're a little more civilized than that. One of the reasons for universal fire service is to avoid the harm that comes when people try to do it on their own. You don't want random people - the homeown…

Well, for brevity's sake I missed out the bit where you ignored the court order etc :-)

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#39

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:16 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #29

Suppose they did help and one of the firefighters got hurt. It would probably be a violation of their insurance ("Why were you protecting a home not on your coverage list?"). Would the family who was too cheap to pay $75 a year pay for medical costs for that firefighter?

Most unlikely. The insuredness or not of a property has little bearing on the dangers it poses compared to any other burning building; it's the accountant who'd be upset, rather than the insurers.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#40

Post by nodata » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:16 PM UTC

rythie wrote: post #27

nodata wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well one alternative might be to apologise to the fire-fighters, and agree to pay them a lot of money - way over the missed premiums - to put the fire out. This would help you, because you would otherwise lose way more money instead, and it would help them, because they could sidestep the claim that "if everybody did this...". You could even say that upfront payers get priority over one-off payers.

What's your view of way over the missed premiums? 10x, 100x? (Assuming 1/100 chance over 20 years - which is very high) $75 over 20 years is $1500 So they are looking at committing $15,000 or even $150,000 if their house burns down. Now, bare in mind this person wouldn't even pay $75 so how are you going to get even $15k off them let alone $150k

Well since this pricing scheme doesn't already exist, it's up to the fire-fighters to create it. The price can be wrong, it doesn't matter, the point is that the price gives the fire-fighters the opportunity to save the house without compromising their principles.

After they save the house, they can then worry about whether the price was a fair one or not, and publicise this. People would then realise what a good deal the premiums are.