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4D toys

4dtoys.com

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Re: 4D toys

#31
This is amazing and looks really fun! I remember reading a short science fiction story once, "Mimsy Were the Borogoves"[1], where small children were playing with such 4D toys, which were found to be educative in unpredictable ways.

It really makes me want to try it out. I wonder if it's really the same without VR.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimsy_Were_the_Borogoves (watch out, there are spoilers here!)

Re: 4D toys

#32
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be the benefits of the 3D VR? There will always be a 2D bottleneck on your eyes' retina. The most important perspective clue I would say is temporal sampling. For dynamical systems, Takens theorem says that a high dimensional topology can be restituted by the sequential sampling of a single variable alone. It seems likely to me that our perception generally works by this principle. That being said, I think…

I'd say we have two eyes and compile to something 3D, which is mostly possible because of that and nothing is hardwired, just takes a lot of responsive feedback to rewire itself.

We see a 2D projection and infer some 3D information from stereo parallax and other depth cues. But it’s still a 2D projection in the end. A real 3D ”vision” would not have a ”viewpoint”, no perspective, no foreshortening. It’s difficult to even imagine what it would be like to perceive that.

Re: 4D toys

#33
post #18

Can someone help me out here?: I can represent 3D quite comfortably on 2D monitors, can there be an intuitive mapping of 4D to a 3D VR view? I know 3D mapped to 2D suffers from occlusions and heavily relies on clues like perspective, shadow etc. But given enough time even a less intuitive 4D view could become intuitive with time, too. edit: found this: https://youtu.be/S-yRYmdsnGs?t=252 even better: https://youtu.be/…

What would be the benefits of the 3D VR? There will always be a 2D bottleneck on your eyes' retina. The most important perspective clue I would say is temporal sampling. For dynamical systems, Takens theorem says that a high dimensional topology can be restituted by the sequential sampling of a single variable alone. It seems likely to me that our perception generally works by this principle. That being said, I think…

What would a 3D eye even be like? Is it something like having independent depth perception per eye?

Re: 4D toys

#34
post #30

This passage from Death's End by Cixin Liu really gave me pause to stop and wonder about what the experience of seeing extra dimensions might be like (here translated to English by Ken Liu): -- A person looking back upon the three-dimensional world from four-dimensional space for the first time realized this right away: He had never seen the world while he was in it. If the three-dimensional world were likened to a p…

Wow, if this is how it’s like to see three dimensions then where would one be able to hide information to the viewer? Probably another dimension. By moving an object from one location to another the information about the position in the previous states are lost. And information about the future states remains hidden. Alas, present states conceal everything hidden behind them, or ahead of them.

Re: 4D toys

#35

Can't wait to see the 5D version. But seriously, what's the use of that? I don't get it.

> But seriously, what's the use of that? I don't get it.

About the same as the use of novels, music, paintings - stuff like that...

Re: 4D toys

#36

Here's a thought I had watching the bit with 2D man: Actually, the 3D view that 2D man does not understand but which we do understand is... still 2D. My screen is flat. You can use a 2D viewport to render a 3D scene in a way that is natural and easy to understand for us humans: A human watching the 2D scene can very quickly surmise from a glance at the viewport: Which objects are in the scene, and where are they loca…

I asked the same question a few seconds before you :) found this: https://youtu.be/S-yRYmdsnGs?t=252 and even better, this: https://youtu.be/dy_MUfBuq2I

Yes, and I think this just shows how a 3d representation on 2d gives our brain the _illusion_ of 3d. This doesn't work for 4d, because our brain doesn't have an internal understanding of 4d objects.

Re: 4D toys

#37
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked the same question a few seconds before you :) found this: https://youtu.be/S-yRYmdsnGs?t=252 and even better, this: https://youtu.be/dy_MUfBuq2I

Yes, and I think this just shows how a 3d representation on 2d gives our brain the _illusion_ of 3d. This doesn't work for 4d, because our brain doesn't have an internal understanding of 4d objects.

I think once we have it interactively our brain will adapt.

Re: 4D toys

#38

Can't wait to see the 5D version. But seriously, what's the use of that? I don't get it.

I’m guessing from the word “toy” in the name it’s intended as entertainment. I certainly think it’s fascinating and my mind boggles as to how the developer thinks of these shapes (especially for the “full” third person game)

Re: 4D toys

#39
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am by no means an expert, but I have thought about trying to visualise the fourth dimension. The issue is that we don’t really see 3D. While in 2D we can view every pixel simultaneously, when we view in 3D we have the issue of aspect and concealed voxels. You can’t visualise simultaneously all voxels of a cube, as most are under others or otherwise obscured. This therefore limits how much we can use 3D to mimic 4D.…

What an interesting idea! Have you ever produced anything for a representation of 4D with translucent 3D? I'd be very interested to see it...

I'm not sure that could practically work. The problem, is that translucency would allow only a partial view of concealed voxels. As more voxels cover something, the translucent effect compounds.

Additionally, most voxels would appear different with different view perspectives. Due to more or less voxels covering them.

The problem is that in 4D all voxels are visible to the viewer. So viewing a 4D apple would allow you to see the apple from all possible view points simultaneously, including interior views.

To me it just doesn't seem possible to replicate this concept in 3D VR.

Re: 4D toys

#40
How curious. What would a haptic VR experience be like? Does a 4D object still exert mass in the other 3Ds? Could you _intuit_ the other 3Ds even if they were not visible?
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