Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#21

Post by orangecat » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 4:23 PM UTC

wccrawford wrote: post #2

Let me fix that for them: "We're afraid because we make big-budget games, and Zynga has made people pay for low-budget games." I've thought for quite some time that game budgets in the millions are getting out of control. (And movies, too, for that matter.) Good controls, decent visuals and audio, and great plot and/or mechanics. That's what makes the best games. Big-budget games ramp up the visuals and skimp on the…

"We're afraid because we make big-budget games, and Zynga has made people pay for low-budget games."

Nobody gets annoyed at the success of Bejeweled or Sally's Spa or their many knockoffs. They're simple, but they're not "evil".

Good controls, decent visuals and audio, and great plot and/or mechanics. That's what makes the best games.

And Farmville has none of those. It's just a Skinner box. (So is WoW, but at least it has a skill component).

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#22

Post by Goronmon » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 4:25 PM UTC

sjsivak wrote: post #15

BenSS wrote: post #6

Zynga depresses them because they don't make games to be fun, amuse, educate, or tell a story. It's all about the addiction and funneling factor to get users to pay. The 'normal' rules for app developers also do not apply, the founder even admitted to abusing every FB feature possible to grow.

You are just not the target audience. If Zynga games were not fun to everyone, no one would play them. Just because you do not find them amusing does not make them bad games. I don't like the My Little Pony games aimed at 6 year old girls, but I won't say they are bad because I know I am not a 6 year old girl.

I think 'fun' can be a relative thing, which is why people play games like Farmville. When you are bored at work, then a game like Farmville would be a 'fun' diversion of your time. Or if you are bored at home and rather than worry about bills piling up, or that school paper due you play Farmville because it's more 'fun' than worrying about either of those things.

It's like Solitaire. I've played countless games over the years, but I don't recall every actually enjoying the time spent playing it. Normally I was just avoiding doing something else.

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#23

Post by replicatorblog » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 4:26 PM UTC

jdk wrote: post #17

So I used to be a game designer in the very hardcore PC MMO world. I now work as a Lead Game Designer at Zynga. You know what? I'm not gloomy in the slightest. If I stayed in the MMO space, I'd be making the same games that I'd been making for the past 10 years, chasing WoW because that's where publishers want to throw their money. Facebook games on the other hand offered a different audience and a different set of r…

The last paragraph is key, Zynga games, by and large, are social lubricants more than art. Compare Farmville, which seems to be the example of terrible game design. Is it better or worse than Monopoly or Uno? Both those games have highly deterministic styles of play and exist more as a framework for social interaction than as "Art". I don't think its a bad thing. Just look at them in context as substitutes for kitchen table games for widely distributed friends.

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#24

Post by targz » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 4:38 PM UTC

jdk wrote: post #17

So I used to be a game designer in the very hardcore PC MMO world. I now work as a Lead Game Designer at Zynga. You know what? I'm not gloomy in the slightest. If I stayed in the MMO space, I'd be making the same games that I'd been making for the past 10 years, chasing WoW because that's where publishers want to throw their money. Facebook games on the other hand offered a different audience and a different set of r…

The whole "Oh god, Zynga is morally and creatively bankrupt" line is at least 6 months old at this point (and for a company that's only 3 years old, that's a pretty long time).

So what is your point here... It doesn't matter how long ago something like that is said; does it have any merit? Also, I think the first time I heard that kind of observation was a lot earlier than 6 months ago, and I actually still hear it.

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#25

Post by targz » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 4:51 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #18

sjsivak wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are just not the target audience. If Zynga games were not fun to everyone, no one would play them. Just because you do not find them amusing does not make them bad games. I don't like the My Little Pony games aimed at 6 year old girls, but I won't say they are bad because I know I am not a 6 year old girl.

I don't like McDonalds, but I will say it's unhealthy garbage which beats companies that actually care about food only on the strength of its marketing budget...

This is a good point. I'm not in the target audience for McDonalds either, but even if I were and I really really liked McDonalds, it wouldn't make it any healthier or more substantial. I would still be better off eating something else.

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#26

Post by Lewisham » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:12 PM UTC

jdk wrote: post #17

So I used to be a game designer in the very hardcore PC MMO world. I now work as a Lead Game Designer at Zynga. You know what? I'm not gloomy in the slightest. If I stayed in the MMO space, I'd be making the same games that I'd been making for the past 10 years, chasing WoW because that's where publishers want to throw their money. Facebook games on the other hand offered a different audience and a different set of r…

To be honest, it doesn't really matter what personnel you have on board or whether you feel there's some moratorium on bad press (I don't know why the other commenter got down-voted, because you do really state that), it's about the games Zynga produce. The games that Zynga are designing are pretty much bankrupt in terms of enjoyment in and of itself. They're a Korean MMO grind, with the key difference that you have to force your friends into that grind, or pay up.

I really did enjoy Frontierville for the first week or so. There was something therapeutic about tending to my farm, hitting snakes, adding some new trinkets. It's the same pleasure centers as Animal Crossing hits. Then I need to build a building, which requires all sorts of tools, which you can either buy with real money, or get from friends. Those took a couple of days to acquire from my friends. "I'm glad I don't have to do that again" I exclaim. Lo and behold, it's revealed to me that if I want the next building, at my rate of tool acquisition, building the house would take months. My choice was "Pay up, spam more friends, or I dare you to quit." I quit.

Does it matter that a game designer I greatly admire was putting me in this ridiculous situation in his game? Actually, yes it does. It makes it burn more when a man I respect is telling the press how great Zynga is and how much freedom he has, and then he's producing games like this. It's hard not to feel he's simply happy cashing pay checks, players be damned.

I'm not adverse to the idea of paying for games that are Freemium, I put a decent amount of money into Free Realms. But FR was careful to make the transactions in there not required: much of the game (apart from some jobs) was available to you, and that game design didn't require a microtransaction sword or whatever to progress. No money was required, which is the difference with Zynga's games.

Facebook games are a great new place to be. I have no chip about Zynga's Scrooge McDuck money bins, and respect them for their success, the metrics-based technology they have at the backend, and the amazing team they've managed to put together. But the products they produce are cynical and anti-player. And that's why people hate them.

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#27

Post by Lewisham » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:15 PM UTC

chops wrote: post #20

In Zynga games, you’re just trying to get more stuff. You’re caught up in this junkie behavior, and you have to keep upping the dose. That has me terrified. This exactly is what playing most MMO games is all about: the grind for stuff. I don't see a reason this should be considered that threatening to anything. The draw of MMO Games is the sense of accomplishment (next level, next piece of gear), and in any games now…

One important difference is that Zynga games require you to pay for the next dose, the other games you mentioned don't. MMOs are slightly different as you're also paying for the development of content updates and social areas and the like.

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#28

Post by Lewisham » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:18 PM UTC

sjsivak wrote: post #15

BenSS wrote: post #6

Zynga depresses them because they don't make games to be fun, amuse, educate, or tell a story. It's all about the addiction and funneling factor to get users to pay. The 'normal' rules for app developers also do not apply, the founder even admitted to abusing every FB feature possible to grow.

You are just not the target audience. If Zynga games were not fun to everyone, no one would play them. Just because you do not find them amusing does not make them bad games. I don't like the My Little Pony games aimed at 6 year old girls, but I won't say they are bad because I know I am not a 6 year old girl.

They're "bad games" by any usual metric bar with which games are critiqued, unless your metrics are "money made" and "addiction." But they're businessmen metrics, not the ones a game designer would use.

PopCap are definitely the company to look at here. They spent a decent number of years cloning smaller games, which was not to their credit. In the last 4 years or so, they've been creating amazing original IP. And those games are doing gangbusters with all sorts of audiences. You don't have to create bad games in order to engage new audiences, you just have to tap into what they are interested in.

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#29

Post by alizaki » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:20 PM UTC

Listening to Zynga execs talk, they don't really consider their products as games, but rather 'social experiences'. They rely on having people you care about playing the games and enabling communication between players through self-expression, gifting and other mechanics. They constantly compare themselves to email and other communication channels. A lot of that is obviously feel good fluff, but at some level, I think its based in fact and a lot of the opportunities they have to materialize rise out of this too.

Re: Why Zynga's Success Makes Game Designers Gloomy

#30

Post by Lewisham » Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 5:25 PM UTC

gacba wrote: post #5

My favorite quote about Zynga, relevant to this discussion, is that "their motto is the exact opposite of Google's 'Do No Evil'". That's what makes me gloomy. They're like the spoiled love child of EA and Microsoft. They have no scruples or creativity and no apologies to make for it.

Oh yes, that reminds me how much of Zynga's properties are ripped off from existing games. Farmville was a straight-up clone of Farm Town, PetVille was a clone of Pet Society... The properties that Zynga are most proud of are the same as the ones they didn't design.