Earlier quoted context omitted.
Again with the LIDAR argument... Humans drive using only eyes (computer vision) and having a sense of location (localization/3D maps). Early autonomous test vehicles used LIDARS because camera and compute tech are not at the same level they are today. It's a legacy system and more of a shortcut. In essence, Object recognition > LIDAR judging distances. Yeah it's true that a vision based system is much harder to solve…
LIDAR provides more than just distances. With full-360 LIDAR you also get object edges in 3d space, which means you can do object recognition on the LIDAR results. In other words, you get everything that vision systems would offer except color, without having to do any processing to calculate depth, so you can go straight to the object-recognition and navigation processing. LIDAR > vision systems.
Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars
151–160 of 238 posts
Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
> So are you concerned about Tesla intentionally building killing instruments? Or potential for accidents? Or the potential for intentional misuse? The latter two. > We could drive down the number of morons by requiring astronaut training for vehicle operators but again, that tradeoff seems too harsh and it's more efficient to occasionally let people die in traffic accidents than letting them die because nobody quali…
I agree with your general sentiment overall. I do not agree that neural networks are a "black box" with "no ability to inspect and verify". Even putting aside the many methods to understand what a neural network is doing without running it, at core, neural networks are well tested instruments. That's how they learn-- by testing themselves. Obviously it's possible for a neural network to have odd behavior in circumsta…
Name three :).
> neural networks are well tested instruments. That's how they learn-- by testing themselves.
Last I checked, neural networks are well-tested in a sense that if you throw a big database and a shit ton of compute at them, they'll learn to accurately work within that database. Step out of it, and all bets are off. We're better at this than we were 30 years ago - good enough to apply this technology to consumer-level products in which mistakes don't really matter. I'd be wary of applying even current neural networks to safety-critical tasks.
> Obviously it's possible for a neural network to have odd behavior in circumstances not accounted for but that was always going to be possible at the level of complexity we're talking about here.
The problem is that with NNs, the odd behavior is usually totally unexpected, and you can't really inspect the network beforehand to discover the possible ranges of error-generating inputs. Everything works fine but every now and then you get a patterned sofa classified as a zebra, or a car + little noise classified as a toaster. And then there's no obvious relation between multiple misclassifications, because the reasoning structure of the neural network is implicitly encoded in its weights.
> The same factors would apply to any codebase of this complexity.
I think there's a fundamental qualitative difference here. A codebase can be complex, but ultimately it has a structure, and usually (in case of ML) represents a well-understood mathematical structure. Neural networks have simple code, and the whole complexity is hidden in opaque matrices of numbers, where even single changes usually have global effects.
I'm not trying to dismiss NNs in general; I just don't trust them in applications where health and safety is at stake.
Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
> So are you concerned about Tesla intentionally building killing instruments? Or potential for accidents? Or the potential for intentional misuse? The latter two. > We could drive down the number of morons by requiring astronaut training for vehicle operators but again, that tradeoff seems too harsh and it's more efficient to occasionally let people die in traffic accidents than letting them die because nobody quali…
Whenever someone labels something "Politically impossible" I laugh. America banned alcohol by an amendment, pretty much the hardest political barrier we have It's just an excuse IMO
Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
And yet squishy meatbags manage to sensor fuse a stereoscopic image (plus nascient sound based imaging) into a reliably rendered picture of the world...
Yeah, and they do that with dozens of years of accumulated knowledge. Do not have the impression that what you perceive with your eyes is the photons hitting your retina. All that input is heavily fused with decades of experience in dealing with people and the world.
Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
>PS: You can make your own estimates. If people pay attention sufficient to avid accidents 99% of the time the car might be in 100x more accidents without drivers assuming those drivers where perfect. Drop that to IMO more likely 75% and it's closer to 4x at the absolute best case. You can't invent numbers and statistics. Remember the Tesla that crashed in a side barrier and killed the driver, people could reproduce…
Computer failures are reproducible, but you don't get "1000 Teslas driving trough that section in the problematic interval" which shows up in the actual statistics. Computers fail in different ways than humans do. But, that does not mean you can't reason about failure modes. If you ask someone to pay attention to something for an hour without doing anything most people are just really bad at this. Based on that I am…
Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
I ordered a Tesla Model 3 yesterday. When I see the "Full Self-Driving Capability" checkbox at checkout time (it's an option you can pay $3,000 for right now) I just have zero confidence that they can deliver on this. Almost every other aspect of the car is fantastic. But Tesla's delusions about achieving full self-driving with their current approach just make me lose some respect for them. It makes me worried that t…
This is a commonly missed point. You can buy the car today and be very happy with a fantastic car as it is. I did and I'm quite happy, you'll probably be very satisfied as well. I didn't even buy the EAP, as I don't do much highway driving and I think almost no one actually buys the FSD. Having said that, I find it hilarious that people on here have such immensely strong opinions about something that doesn't exist. T…
Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
"It's scary when a company with chronic implementation issues decides to take on a hard problem that is way outside its core competency." This seems like the biography of Elon Musk's companies. He gets a crazy hard problem that people say he and his companies can not do, then he tries to implement it, often falling well behind and well short of the goalposts due to lack of foresight and overambitious scheduling. Ther…
What crazy hard problems have his companies solved? Spaceflight was solved decades before Elon was born. Reusable rockets weren't a hard problem--they were simply a problem the incumbents were unwilling to address because it would have massively cut into their revenues and profits. Electric cars actually predated ICE cars. The issue with EVs was always the charging infrastructure, which Tesla solved...by simply throw…
Reusable rockets weren't a hard problem
Armchair engineer over hereRe: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars
#158“Nvidia’s hardware was handling about 200 frames per second, its specialized chip is able to do crunch out 2000 frames per second “with full redundancy and failover”.” What are the real-world benefits going from 200 to 2000 frames a second? 200 seems quite fast.
Nothing seems that fast at 50 m.p.h., however, excuse the mix in units, but each of those 200 frames is the equivalent of 10cm or so along the road. At 2000 frames per second then that is the equivalent of 1cm. I don't make a habit of crashing cars but I did have one glancing head on crash, combined speeds around 125 m.p.h. and it was only centimetres that meant I did not wipe out that family and trash the car I was…
Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
I worry less about software / hardware crashes leading to death and more about cyberattack. I've written about it before[0]: We need regulations before a mass breach of autonomous systems happens. Not after. This whole bullshit where corporations claim all sorts of things about their security then get owned trivially has happened for every OS and device out there. The supposedly secure QNX was installed into countles…
We already have a number on embedded processors and controllers in cars today, including systems responsible for critical operational parts of the car. How autonomous systems will make anything different? Why do you believe people aren't currently hacking cars? I don't intend to be critical at all, I believe this is a very interesting point too that should be discussed. (I hope to check the links on my interval).
Part of the reason is that, in current ecosystem, companies will find ways in which self-driving requires being constantly on-line and connected to vendor's server. Off-line processing is not in fashion these days.
Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Serious question- why is LIDAR so important? Obviously it’s possible to drive without it (humans do it), so it’s conceivable that eventually machines will be able to do it as well... So I’m guessing your point is, that won’t happen anytime soon and LIDAR is the fastest way to market; can you confirm/expand/clarify?
The standard of safety for autonomous drivers will have to be far beyond parity with humans. Humans cause car accidents all the time. LIDAR gives unambiguous depth and probably much easier object segmentation, no complexity or reasoning required like computing from stereo images.