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Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars

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Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars

#71

what does he mean with regards to GPUs and CPUs "emulating"? they are computation machines doing computations. an algorithm running on one or the other isn't emulating anything in this context. running on "bare metal" is just an optimization along a certain axis. it isn't any more real of a computation. and talking about this now seems like another desperate attempt at generating hype.

Ultimately its down to dimensionality CPUs (at least originally) were designed for scalar calculation, you loaded something a piece at a time from RAM and did a single scalar calculation before putting it back into RAM, rinse repeat. A GPU works in a more vectorised/matrix level way with essentially a pipeline of linear transforms on a set of data values all at once. The issue with both of these two is they still have a linear memory model, because that works for more serial lower dimension operations, usually three dimensions for a GPU maybe a couple more. Networks or graphs as objects aren't neatly linear in memory or nicely shaped into regular dimensions for doing pipelined vectorised calculations. Though the GPU model is a little closer than the CPU one. Graph algorithms its not random access or serial access either its /structured/ access based on the graphs connections. So ideally you want memory shaped and optimised for this sort of access, as well as computation well linked to utilise this rearchitected RAM. Many companies have been exploring newer architectures for dealing with ANN calculations that inherently benefit from changing the model of memory access and computation. So you can "emulate" as in reformulate the mathematical representation of a graph into a list or a matrix, an adjacency list based algorithm would work well on a CPU and an adjacency matrix based one would work better on a GPU. But neither of those fit perfectly to either model they are just dimensionally the nearest with many tradeoffs you have to make for each.

Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars

#72
post #3

This is pretty bad from a hardware/software verification perspective. People who care about correctness can just go home, I guess. It's amazing that we're gonna let these things on the streets. When you weigh almost 2 tons and can go >100mph, it doesn't matter if you have a gun mounted on you or not, you are a weapon .

This is pure unmitigated FUD. Do you have a comment on the actual content of the article?

For example, chips have flaws. Hardware designers work incredibly hard to verify that their chip designs are functionally correct, because the cost of a correctness bug can be catastrophic. With the proliferation of custom hardware designs, verification of the whole stack is even more important. It's bad from the perspective that now instead of building on top and reusing a chip company's huge investment in a verified product, there is a custom product to which an unknown level of verification expertise has been applied. Doubly so because these chips are designed for approximate workloads, so they cut corners left and right on correctness for efficiency. People should be more skeptical.

Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars

#73
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wait until they admit that they need LIDAR too... Cha Ching! Various Autopilot accidents strongly imply that whatever the computer “brain” is doing doesn’t matter if it doesn’t have sufficient “eyes” to actually see things like a fire truck, cop car, or bollard.

And yet squishy meatbags manage to sensor fuse a stereoscopic image (plus nascient sound based imaging) into a reliably rendered picture of the world...

Yeah, and they do that with dozens of years of accumulated knowledge. Do not have the impression that what you perceive with your eyes is the photons hitting your retina. All that input is heavily fused with decades of experience in dealing with people and the world.

Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars

#74
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you are referring at current Teslas ? This cars require the driver to pay 100% attention, by law and by Tesla agreements so isn't obvious that driver+drive assist+expensive car has better average numbers then driver + average (maybe old) car ? I would like to see the numbers of how many times a driver had to intervene to save the situation

It's an option so insurance companies compare the exact same car with and without that option. In terms of paying attention I really doubt most people are doing this very well. I am going to be stuck in the car either way so by default I am going to be watching the road, but as long as my relative stress level drops that's a huge win. PS: You can make your own estimates. If people pay attention sufficient to avid acc…

But if say me+ a computer program together defeat you at chess you can't conclude that the computer is better then you, just that the computer helped me maybe in some tricky situation , you can't conclude that the computer will win without me.

Same with Tesla, this is why I would like to see the number the drivers had to intervene and prevent crashes, without this number the only conclusion is about driver asist and not autopilot/self driving

Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars

#75
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pure unmitigated FUD. Do you have a comment on the actual content of the article?

For example, chips have flaws. Hardware designers work incredibly hard to verify that their chip designs are functionally correct, because the cost of a correctness bug can be catastrophic. With the proliferation of custom hardware designs, verification of the whole stack is even more important. It's bad from the perspective that now instead of building on top and reusing a chip company's huge investment in a verifie…

Being skeptical is fine, but it would be fair to back such a strong statement up with facts rather than completely ungrounded speculation.

Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same sense that any object that can potentially kill someone (hint: everything) is a weapon. Which is technically correct but a useless observation. If we use a more narrow definition of weapon, e.g. a tool optimized for the primary purpose of injuring or killing people then it certainly is not a weapon.

> In the same sense that any object that can potentially kill someone (hint: everything) is a weapon. Which is technically correct but a useless observation. It's not useless; the damage that can be caused varies by degree between things. Then you have to look at two cases - suitability for object to be used as a weapon, and the damage it can cause on accident. Unlike knives or hammers, both those factors are very hi…

I was quibbling about semantics. I am aware that cars can be dangerous.

> and the damage it can cause on accident

You are conflating (un)safety of a tool used in the way it is intended (kitchen knife = cutting a steak) with accidents (cutting a finger) and with malicious use (stabbing people). Those three categories are not the same for object-that-may-act-as-weapon and object-designed-as-weapon.

Conflating them collapses the number useful things we can communicate.

So are you concerned about Tesla intentionally building killing instruments? Or potential for accidents? Or the potential for intentional misuse?

> The fact how dangerous cars is is very much underappreciated by people in general, as evidenced by the number of morons on the road.

Cars also provide immense utility. If all they did were providing the thrill of speeding then they would probably be banned as too dangerous. One of the tradeoffs is the overhead of enabling people to drive. We could drive down the number of morons by requiring astronaut training for vehicle operators but again, that tradeoff seems too harsh and it's more efficient to occasionally let people die in traffic accidents than letting them die because nobody qualified as ambulance driver.

> We have a for-profit race by companies, many of which can't be trusted with getting software right

In the short term this may cause more deaths than necessary. But on the other hand it might be the quickest way to find a winner and then hold the rest to the same standard. As long as the experimental fleets are small they are just a blip in the statistics. Right now they should be equated to the yearly batch of first-year drivers who have an inherently higher risk profile due to lack of experience. We still accept them on our roads in the expectation that they improve.

What is important is to make sure that they are as good as or better than humans once they roll out in large fleets.

Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars

#77
post #45

Right now, with HW2 Tesla is in kind of an awkward no man's land where their hardware is overkill for basic ADAS, but nowhere near enough for any kind of autonomy that allows the driver to turn their attention away from the driving task. By going to a custom ASIC with inferencing. I have little doubt about Musk's claim that it'll offer a 10x improvement over the current stripped down PX Drive2 variant for deep learni…

It's hard to say for sure they are no where near full autonomy in their research although their current vehicles crashing into barriers and fire trucks obviously don't cut it.

Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars

#78

Curiously there already is (was?) a probably eastern European chip manufacturer named Tesla (search images for "tesla ttl chips") but I wasn't able to find info on the manufacturer and if they're still in business.

Czechoslovak Tesla was shared brand of various state-owned electronics companies in the communist era (the companies in fact didn't have common parent company). Several of such companies are still in business.

In particular the semiconductor manufacturer Tesla Roznov and later TESLA SEZAM is today a subsidiary of ON Semiconductor (anecdotally they manufacture the power transistors used in Tesla Motors drive units, but I have no way to verify that claim).

Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars

#79
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you are referring at current Teslas ? This cars require the driver to pay 100% attention, by law and by Tesla agreements so isn't obvious that driver+drive assist+expensive car has better average numbers then driver + average (maybe old) car ? I would like to see the numbers of how many times a driver had to intervene to save the situation

It's an option so insurance companies compare the exact same car with and without that option. In terms of paying attention I really doubt most people are doing this very well. I am going to be stuck in the car either way so by default I am going to be watching the road, but as long as my relative stress level drops that's a huge win. PS: You can make your own estimates. If people pay attention sufficient to avid acc…

>PS: You can make your own estimates. If people pay attention sufficient to avid accidents 99% of the time the car might be in 100x more accidents without drivers assuming those drivers where perfect. Drop that to IMO more likely 75% and it's closer to 4x at the absolute best case.

You can't invent numbers and statistics.

Remember the Tesla that crashed in a side barrier and killed the driver, people could reproduce the incident in the same spot , you can see it on youtube, so without a driver and with say 1000 Teslas driving trough that section in the problematic interval you would get at least 1000x more deaths.

Only if you include the people that reproduced the incident mentioned above you will get the Tesla stats much below human drivers.

Re: Tesla is building its own AI chips for self-driving cars

#80
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry less about software / hardware crashes leading to death and more about cyberattack. I've written about it before[0]: We need regulations before a mass breach of autonomous systems happens. Not after. This whole bullshit where corporations claim all sorts of things about their security then get owned trivially has happened for every OS and device out there. The supposedly secure QNX was installed into countles…

YES. Security compromise is the huge achilles heel of self-driving cars - and anything that is algorithmically controlled. When you have 100,000 self-driving cars on the road, and someone figures out how to hack them, and drive them simultaneously into crowds, that will be a BIG BIG problem. And this problem isn't just about self-driving cars. It is a fundamental issue with all algorithms. It's a lot harder to hack h…

Let us not also forget, we also want to prevent governments from having the ability to shut down them down as well. While there may be a need to disable a car in a chase or such I am against the idea of wholesale shutting down a highway full of cars or similar scenarios.
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