Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#391

Post by ehsankia » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:31 AM UTC

econ4all wrote: post #26

There are a couple of recurring themes here: 1. the hyper-moralising over google's business decisions, they're not the only company that modifies its business to access the chinese market nor is the chinese government the only one that demands censorship. 2. google employees' attempts to sabotage the company's business prospects.

3. Western people feeling outraged in place of people from other countries.

I would love to hear from more native Chinese people, but from what I've seen so far, most of them would much rather have access to limited services than nothing at all. Not being able to make Duo calls, access Play Store, access AppEngine, access Youtube, etc is far more of an issue to them than not being able to Google about tiananmen square.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#392

Post by iamshs » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:46 AM UTC

xvector wrote: post #367

iamshs wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comments are on Indian government, and not Indians or Hindus. Where have I insinuated anything about Hindus? It is absolutely certain to hurt Indians in future, if Google goes ahead and implements it in China. This is what I am doing, bringing in another viewpoint which I didn't see being brought up beforehand. It is a valid viewpoint. Stop getting all nationalistic on me, especially when it comes to defending cen…

> It is absolutely certain to hurt Indians in future, See, you're missing the point again. India is irrelevant to this discussion. It's tangential at best. Let's look at an example: mywacaday asked [1]: "Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China" And you responded [2]: "Because it will degrade democracy in countries like India." No. That's not the reason. Th…

The censorship project won't remain confined to China. Absolutely and directly relevant, as countries that have germinating democracies right now will not continue on the path. If this project gets implemented in China, India is next and I have a right to bring my viewpoint to this discussion. India already loves censorship as it is. Looks like your issue is why India is being mentioned, I have no control over your emotions.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#393

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 5:44 AM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #290

quotemstr wrote: post #265

The hypocrisy of western activist types on this issue is astounding. One week, they demand that tech companies across the US censor what they find "harmful", but the next week, they condemn the Chinese for doing exactly the same thing for content they find "harmful". Either you're in favor of free speech or you're just partial about which content you want to censor. The activist crowd in the west lost all moral stand…

I think there is an important distinction to be made. Censorship that is meant to block all criticism of the current rulers to keep them in power forever is unlike all other kinds of censorship because it is self-referential and self-reinforcing. If a government censors, say, sites that distribute pirated movies or sites that glamorise suicide, I can still protest against that ban or campaign to get a different gover…

[deleted]

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#394

Post by ramblerman » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 5:48 AM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #324

bufferoverflow wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google isn't really in favor of free speech, they fired James Damore for stating quite mild facts that are quite known among clinical psychologists.

Hypothesis: some "mild facts" are legally considered "harmful, discriminatory, and disruptive." These two things can both be true, but if they are, companies might still be obligated to minimize a harmful, discriminatory, and disruptive workplace. https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/16/17021714/james-damore-goo...

> some "mild facts" are legally considered "harmful, discriminatory, and disruptive."

What? I thought the argument from the other end was always to deny these were facts. You are saying, yes, they are facts. But they are too volatile so we won't examine them?

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#395

Post by sidibe » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 6:01 AM UTC

iamshs wrote: post #392

xvector wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is absolutely certain to hurt Indians in future, See, you're missing the point again. India is irrelevant to this discussion. It's tangential at best. Let's look at an example: mywacaday asked [1]: "Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China" And you responded [2]: "Because it will degrade democracy in countries like India." No. That's not the reason. Th…

The censorship project won't remain confined to China. Absolutely and directly relevant, as countries that have germinating democracies right now will not continue on the path. If this project gets implemented in China, India is next and I have a right to bring my viewpoint to this discussion. India already loves censorship as it is. Looks like your issue is why India is being mentioned, I have no control over your e…

>The censorship project won't remain confined to China.

Another aspect of this is that once Google gets addicted to Chinese revenue, China will have leverage over them. It's much easier for Google (from shareholder-relations perspective) to stay out of China than it would be to start making tens of billions of dollars there and then pull out when China starts uncomfortably twisting their arm more. I wonder what concessions they are getting out of a company heavily relying on China, like Apple. Google would be even scarier.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#396

Post by known » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 6:46 AM UTC

Google already has a winsome search engine for mobile platform

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#397

Post by fauigerzigerk » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 7:17 AM UTC

ehsankia wrote: post #385

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is an important distinction to be made. Censorship that is meant to block all criticism of the current rulers to keep them in power forever is unlike all other kinds of censorship because it is self-referential and self-reinforcing. If a government censors, say, sites that distribute pirated movies or sites that glamorise suicide, I can still protest against that ban or campaign to get a different gover…

Any censorship is almost be definition self-reinforcing. If you censor something, there's less of it and the ideas that aren't censored proliferate more, getting stronger.

In that sense, censoring criticism of rulers in general is doubly self-reinforcing.

It reinforces the specific laws and rules they make and it reinforces obedience, lack of critical thinking and intransparency of the censorship decisions themselves.

I don't see how anyone could deny that censoring political opposition in general acts on a meta level and is therefore categorically different from all other stuff that gets censored.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#398

Post by mocae » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 8:02 AM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #287

mocae wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between not having a choice and openly advertising and justifying unethical behavior. The fact that this is the only sentence you've touched speaks for itself.

>There is a difference between not having a choice You have no choice? >and justifying unethical behavior. I get it. It's not unethical when you engage in commerce with a regime you find unethical, or when you buy from all the other companies that manufacture their goods in China ... but it's unethical if Google doesn't want to ignore 1.4 billion people? >The fact that this is the only sentence you've touched speaks…

> You have no choice?

Turn your mouse around. Where is it made? This is true since it was a joke in the 90s.

> I get it. It's not unethical when you engage in commerce with a regime you find unethical, or when you buy from all the other companies that manufacture their goods in China ... but it's unethical if Google doesn't want to ignore 1.4 billion people?

I never said it's not unethical. You say that I say that. Which is quite weak. I hope this is the result of you realizing what you did and now trying to dig yourself out by shifting blame to others.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#399

Post by thatcat » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 8:17 AM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #281

DINKDINK wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in general Google protects user data How is storing and cataloging reams of private data 'protecting' it? If your significant other was constantly noting every friend you talked to, every purchase you made, videotaping your every move, would you call that protecting them? To protect a user's data, it shouldn't even be collected in the first place. I think a better choice of words is that Google does a better job at…

People mistake privacy for security . Google has one of the most secure services on the Internet. At the same time Google is the biggest threat to privacy. These two statements are not mutually exclusive. People simply don't get what privacy is about.

Security is complicated. I think the point was that if you don't store the unnecessary data then that data is 100% secure.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#400

Post by the_grue » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 8:24 AM UTC

betterunix2 wrote: post #351

the_grue wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a coincidence that USA was the largest economy on Earth? I don't think so. On the contrary, I think it became the most powerful country on Earth due to the free competition of talent and ideas, which is impossible without free speech. Besides, Internet, being as wide open to anonymity as it is, simply never would never have been developed in a country like China, it would be deemed too dangerous. They may compe…

Keep in mind that in 1776 when the Continental Congress declared independence, Britain was the largest economy in the world. America's declaration of independence lists out all the abuse of power and lack of freedom people endured under British rule. Despite all that, Britain had become the wealthiest country in human history at the time, commanding the most cutting-edge technology (the USA copied steam engines from…

Right now it seems China's success is only temporary, owing a lot to undervaluation of its currency and to the low cost of labor. It cannot stay in this place forever - sooner or later the growth will stop, the cost of labor will go up, and that's when all the totalitarian warts, such as their weak justice system, corruption and ineffective management, will become obvious.