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Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

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Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#251
I love free speech. I love individual liberty. I respect the sovereignty of nations. I believe societies are feee to choose. Should we impose our value system on the Chinese? No. We should try to relate and understand why the Chinese people have taken their route.

If and when we find our value systems at odds with those of other people we cannot conclude that ours is superior and undermine their freedom to choose. That’s just arrogant and — most importantly — unbecoming when you describe yourself as an advocate for freedom.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#252

When Tim Cook backs China’s vision of an ‘open’ Internet in a Chinese forum, HN says that at least Apple is providing some service to the Chinese users, who will have worse services if apple drops out of China. Apple routinely blocks apps on the request of the Chinese government. But if Goole too decides to provides services to China, in accordance with Chinese law, the reaction is so different here. Not taking any s…

Well because Apple's main business isn't to provide access of information. And there is very little difference between an iPhone experience in China and iPhone experience to US.

The same could not be said about Google.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#253

There are lots of tech companies active in countries like China, Russia, Iran, and other countries with varying ideas about privacy, human rights, etc. This generally requires complying with local legislation, whether you agree with that or not. Singling out Google for not opting to exclude a fifth of the population of this planet from their products is a bit overkill. I'd rather they offer choice to the Chinese peop…

How precisely does the fact that these countries exist 'require' complying with local legislation? Google is free to host their servers in other countries, which are free from censorship laws. It's not like Google needs to be present in that market to survive. In a bigger context, the Internet business, and Google in particular, is a product of a free, liberal society. It couldn't have existed without freedom. Thus f…

Are you sure the Internet is a product of a free and liberal society? It may just be coincidence; America happened to be the largest economy on Earth when the Internet was developed.

I would argue that the basic design of the Internet is the most efficient way to build a large-scale, general-purpose computer network; this is why it has subsumed or is in the process of subsuming every other system. Had China been the world's largest economy at the time I think they would have developed the Internet too -- maybe they would have tried to build some kind of censorship in, but they would have quickly discovered that it is just more efficient to censor at the edges (I think they are already aware of this fact, given the amount of censorship they require from social media websites and the last-resort role the Great Firewall plays; there is also the general tolerance of businesses using VPNs to avoid the Great Firewall).

For what it's worth, there is innovation coming out of China, and it is happening at an increasing pace as the Chinese economy grows. The freedom to criticize your government or to organize a protest movement is not really necessary for technical innovation.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts They didn't pull their search engine out of China because of censorship requests, they pulled their search engine because the government kept trying to hack them and steal their source code, which they eventually did. So Google up and left. Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303493904575167... They like to cite censorship a…

Full article: http://archive.is/eOm2B Thanks for sharing, I've only ever heard the "PR" flavor of why they left. This makes more sense.

Stephen Levy covers it heavily in "In The Plex".

If my memory serves, they censored Google.cn, but did not block users in China from the un-censored Google.com. The PRC alternated between blocking and unblocking .com.

My understanding of the final straw was the hacking of gmail to steal the communications and network info of Chinese dissidents and activists.

More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China#Giving_up_Google_...

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#255
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google is the destroyer of privacy. Google tracks their users at an unprecedented level in the whole history of humanity and if they do this, we now have concrete proof that they don't have values that are above their bottom line. Sure Google stores a lot of data about me, but why should I be worried? They haven't done anything malicious with it. All user data from Google stays on Google, so how is that any differe…

>Sure Google stores a lot of data about me, but why should I be worried? They haven't done anything malicious with it. >All user data from Google stays on Google No, there is no company who cannot be hacked, whether from an insider or an outsider. Big data is what enabled the operational efficiency of the Holocaust[1]. Imagine the mass scale, micro targeted cyber attacks a bad person could do with a little programmin…

> Now the police dreams that one look at the gigantic map on the office wall should suffice at any given moment to establish who is related to whom and in what degree of intimacy; and, theoretically, this dream is not unrealizable although its technical execution is bound to be somewhat difficult. If this map really did exist, not even memory would stand in the way of the totalitarian claim to domination; such a map might make it possible to obliterate people without any traces, as if they had never existed at all.

-- Hannah Arendt, "The Origins of Totalitarianism"

When people get into re-education camps and are never heard from again.. well, Hannah Arendt again:

> The concentration camps, by making death itself anonymous (making it impossible to find out whether a prisoner is dead or alive), robbed death of its meaning as the end of a fulfilled life. In a sense they took away the individual’s own death, proving that henceforth nothing belonged to him and he belonged to no one. His death merely set a seal on the fact that he had never existed.

And ALL that is required on behalf of the population is to look the other way, to just deny the people who get disappeared is to have blood on one's hands. The excuses people made in the last century are on record, and the excuses we hear today are no better.

It's one thing to feel helpless or be scared, it's one thing to want to, but to not know how -- but to simply look away, and to pat oneself on the back for it! There are a bunch of circles in hell, then there's few hundred circles for nobody, which Dante mistakenly thought to lead nowhere, and then there's a final circle for that.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#256
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people here don't understand is that the talk about censorship is of less than secondary importance there. China's priority here is totally not to censor them, it is to conduct the "handshaking ritual" and have them becoming subject under China's "law." A "blood pack" - making them partners in crime. The same was with Yahoo. They came to China talking only about "search," but got asked about "personal data of al…

Is the book available in English? I could only find passing references in news articles, but not the actual book.

I think no, I also tried to look for a complete translation.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#257

There might be many tech companies in China, no doubt, including big names, and companies should comply with local regulations if they want to do business, however the fact that Google pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts, is one big reason for why I respected Google, in spite of my reservations for them. So let me tell you what I think as an EU citizen that's actively concerned…

What bothers me is that Google would be happy using China as the baseline, iow, mass censorship and silo-ing of information.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#258
post #150

Google employees practically rioted when they found out their employer was trying to get a contract with the American Government, but will just cash their RSUs when they help the Chinese government censor its citizens. Sad.

The Chinese government is going to censor its citizens regardless though.

The US government will just give the AI contract to Raytheon/Northrop instead of Google. What's your point?

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#259
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still reads as irrational to me, but at least it's technically accurate. It's worth remembering that "data" as they say stales very quickly. Knowing that you ordered a package two months ago is far less interesting than knowing you're expecting one next week. Or that you'll be booking a plane trip soon, and wouldn't you just love to know Delta is cheapest on that date? "Having your data" isn't a binary concept. Their…

> The only thing that matters is if that firehose is still available to them. Which it obviously is, so I'm not sure what point you were making viz. Google. The "turning off" of the items you mention is also entirely a user-visualization exercise. All of your data is still there inside the panopticon. Even not using Google service anywhere does not free you from it, if you send email to a Gmail user, lo, Google has i…

>The "turning off" of the items you mention is also entirely a user-visualization exercise.

Prove it. They offer controls for almost every service they provide. If you're going to claim they're visual-only, then prove that these controls do nothing.

https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols

https://adssettings.google.com/

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#260
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well no, I did have a problem, I moved off GSuite to FastMail, I moved off Android, I'm a DuckDuckGo user, I went back to Firefox even before the Quantum release. But I had a lot of respect for Google for pulling out of China on censorship considerations and in fairness (unlike others) they seemed fairly responsible with how they treated the data they collect. Their security at least has been top notch, plus I've see…

Except there is clear evidence that FastMail employees are able and willing to read through your personal emails, and they've become actively user-hostile in their support: https://twitter.com/shazow/status/1021570521987731458 Make of it what you will, but I worked at Google for a time and I came out more convinced that my data is safer there. This was 2012 so maybe things have changed since then, but we need better…

Not sure what FastMail has to do with anything, that wasn't the point, but ...

I don't care if FastMail employees can read my email for support reasons. I actually expect FastMail employees to be able to read my email, since we aren't talking about end to end encryption. Unless end to end encryption is involved, then the stories of Google's encryption at rest are nothing more than bed time stories, since obviously their systems are not available to me for review.

And that's not what my privacy concerns are about for Google. I don't care about random Google employees, because that's not the biggest threat. The biggest threat is me and my family being profiled and I've seen evidence of this time and time again. It's also a big and real threat due to Google's size and reach.

FastMail is a better alternative first of all because FastMail is not Google, period. You may want security, but I want privacy and yes there's a difference.

I don't need a better reason than that, but if I ever discover that FastMail is a problem (which I doubt, since they are awesome), I'll pick the next email provider in line that's not Google.

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